Help! Winchester Ideal Reloading Tool Caliber Identification.

So I bought a Winchester reloading tool at an antique store today. It was pretty cheap. I already own one, in 40-82. The problem that I have with this one is that I don't know what caliber it is. It casts .449 diameter bullets. ( Keep in mind i didnt wash is at the time of casting so it was full of rust.) My best guess is 45-70 from the little research iv'e done.

Il try to add images of both reloading tools if I figure out how.


https://i.imgur.com/5yaARcy.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/DxY72FD.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/SVlEVBB.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/MvOkqsH.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/WB7MHX5.jpg

I would agree that your tool is likely to be (or have been) for 45-70, but it appears that due to the significant rust (UMM... "patina") you will have a very difficult time casting a bullet that will yield any meaningful measurement of the original bullet diameter. You might also try the actual seating portion of the tool and try to get some measurements there, but again, a few big flakes of rust will have a huge effect on what kind of measurement you get. If you are trying to retain "originality" of the piece, stop reading here, but if it were mine, I'd take a short piece of cleaning rod, add a 45 caliber bronze brush, and chuck the rod up in my drill. Then I would brush out both the mould cavity and the seating chamber at slow to medium speed (perhaps with a bit of oil from time to time) until the worst of the loose scaly stuff was removed, then try my measurements again. I'm not sure you will be able to ever get this tool to a usable state in its original caliber, though... I might just hang it on the wall in a shadow box with other misused and abused old reloading equipment and call it "art." 8-)

Froggie

If you're not too worried about saving the original vintage "patina" and really want to get rid of the accumulated rust you could fabricate a small "E tank" which would remove the rust completely. Unfortunately it would also remove what finish is remaining and it would be completely in the white metal. It would remove the rust, but you'd still end up a with the pitting to deal with at that point and would need to polish the sizing chamber and mould cavity to try and make it functional again if that is your wish. As has been suggested above, I think it is likely beyond practical use by now and it is basically a display piece ...

Thanks for the help. I actually Left the tool in a rust removing solution over night and it cleaned up pretty well. Il try casting some boolits once I have time. The mold looks like it cleaned up nicely!
Also, another question. Would it be possible to run the .45 caliber boolit through a resizer? I dont even own a 45-70 rifle, but the boolits would wor kif i would size them down for my 40-82. And they would be heavier than the ones I have now. My only issue is that the .45 cal is .449 diameter and id need to resize it to .410. So that will probably affect the grease grooves? DOes that affect accuracy at all?

If it is a 45-70, when you get the bullet chamber clean and casting properly, it should drop bullets at .457". That's way too big, IMHO, to size down into the .40x range without a lot of smearing and distortion. I wouldn't try it on a press, much less with a tong tool. In essence you would be swaging those bullets.

Froggie

Just a thought, but these Winchester tong tools were actually produced for the .43 Spanish. Might explain the undersized bullet? Just tossing that out there for consideration ...

Looking at those pics, I would have considered those moulds as "LeverRights"...................Should have "leave them right there on the table".

I won't matter how much effort you put into attempting to clean up those moulds. With all the pitting, you'll never get a good bullet out of them.

Just my 2 cents.

RRR

You could remove the crosspin and punch from the "whatever" tool and install them on the .40-82 tool. You would then have one functioning tool (except for a decapping pin, which can be cobbled together for either tool from aluminum rod and a proper sized drill). Before doing that, though, lubricate that boolit you cast and squeeze it through the hole in the handle and measure it again. If the hole sizes the small boolit, the tool is definitely not a .45-70. The chamber looks too small and pinched-down to me to be a .45-70, anyway; may be some sort of .44 bottleneck. If so, more's the pity.

Wrap a wad of steel wool around a dowel, grab the end in your electric drill, spray WD-40 into the loading chambers of the tools and give them the works. Go in and out as the dowel spins and make sure you get it to the bottom of the chambers. Keep washing and wiping the loosened crud out of the chambers until it's down to a minimum. Then test with specimen cartridges to see what chambers.

You can cast boolits out of the moulds, coat them with valve grinding paste and lap them out to see if you can improve some of the damage. That one boolit out of the no-name tool looks like it's been fired into a sandbank. Could you get a closeup of the cavity?

You can't ruin the no-name tool, whatever you do, so it's a good candidate for study and restoration practice at least.

I put it in rust removing solution and it came out clean. I was wondering if I could resize the bullet to a .410 ?

If it’s really a 45-70 mould it should drop a .457” bullet. Making that into a .401” bullet is not sizing, it’s swaging! :???: I wouldn’t dream of trying that with a tong tool. 8-)

Froggie

If the rust remover worked, cast one more in it and measure. As has been said 45-70 should be .457-459 depending. If it is still casting at 449 it was not for 45-70 and as mentioned MIGHT have been a 43 Spanish. Also besides measurement check the weight of the new dropped bullet. Might give more clues. EITHER way I agree that you wan't going to be sizing that down to a .40 IMHO. I think you can maybe make the tool usable again depending on how that rust soak went and where you go from there, it is a LONG shot though. If nothing else you will learn alot in the process and even have a good story if it remains a "display" piece.

God Bless, and One Love.

GoodOlBoy

I think the tool was actually 45-70. I can see a 7 through the pitting. And the bullet drops out of the mold larger but I ran it through the sizing hole in the tool.