Newb 50-70 Govt questions

I'm very new to black powder reloading, but very much not new to metallic cartridge reloading having loaded in the neighborhood of 50k smokeless rounds in various modern calibers. I'm restoring a 1866 Springfield 2nd Allin conversion in 50-70. I read most everything I could find, bought 20 cases, some Goex FFg, a wad cutter, and some bullet lube. Also purchased a furnace and some soft lead ingots. Slugging the barrel after extensive lead removal yielded a bore of .518" across the groves. It turns out, the Lyman mold I bought drops 450 grain bullets at that very diameter, so no sizing required. For my first try. I loaded five rounds with 65 grains of FFg (to err on the safe side), a .050" paper wad with two newsprint wads under the bullet. Powder was dropped through a drop tube, and then compressed .090" before bullet seating and crimp. The first shot, although highly anxious, fired normally without blowing anything up. It took the other four shots to hit the paper at 100 yards after finding it was shooting about 18" high. I subsequently loaded twenty more, and had a fine time blasting away at the bottom of the target frame to hit somewhere on the target.

I have now loaded twenty more rounds using the same procedure, but with 60 grains of FFg. Here is my question: am I doing anything dangerous by going with five grains less powder? I know, seems like a dumb question, but I very much want the bullet to exit the barrel in the normal fashion without damaging me nor the gun.

The rifle I'm restoring had been sporterized at some point in its history, although thankfully they left the barrel the length it was born with. They shortened the stock to a single band, but did a nice job of it, even replacing the end cap. They also blued the barrel and did an exceptional job of it. I suspect they might have filed down the front sight post to make it a 200 or 300 yard gun, since it shoots so high at 100 yards with a reduced (65g) load. Why they wouldn't just flip the rear sight up is anyone's guess.

If I can't load my way onto the paper at 100 yards, I will likely try to add a bit to the front sight post (braze or weld tbd).

The key to black powder loading is to have no air space in the case. Always fill the space with something between the powder and the bullet if the bullet doesn't compress the powder by itself. People have used many many things to fill the space and about any compressible inert material will work. Good luck with your project.

So no problem going five grains less on the powder charge, assuming everything else is right? Five grains seems like a lot to a metallic reloader such as myself.

As long as you aren't leaving air space you're fine.

For example, in the 19th century the US Army issued a reduced load in the .45-70, for use in carbines. It used a 55 grain charge of powder but in the same case as rifle ammo. This was done to reduce recoil.

I sometimes build reduced black powder loads in .44-40. In modern solid head brass, 35 grains is a full load. However, I'll load 28 grains with a 1/8" nitro card to fill the air space. I do this to duplicate .44 Henry Flat ballistics in my Cimarron 1860 Henry replica. This load is also nice to shoot in .44-40 revolvers, with less recoil than full-house loads.

Thanks Dave. I added an additional .050" wad and seated the bullet deeper to make sure there is no air space.

You didnt mention what powder you are using ( brand). This can make a difference in the amount of compression you need to get to the "Sweet Spot".

What I do is to start at no compression / no air space and test.It will more than likely be dirty and slightly low velocity with high extreme spreads and Standard deviation. I then work up in 1 grain increments changing only the powder charge and compression. ES and SD numbers will go down velocity will go up slightly and groups will tighten.Keep working up till ES and SD are the lowest and then test at the mid point.

Use a lube meant for Black powder to keep fouling soft and manageable. SPG or home made Emmerts Improved are both very good.
Emmerts Improved
50% beesaw
40% unsalted crisco
5% canola oil
5% anhydrous Lanolin
I also add a very light drop of murphys oil soap

For a wad I normally start with a .060 wad made from Napa rubber fiber gasket material. I also add 2 typing paper wads on top of it. Compress with wads in place with a seperate die. Do not use the soft bullet to compress.

As to the 18" of elevation make a simple aiming point ( bullseye) out of poster board or other light material you can staple to the frame 18" below the X ring. This will give you the aiming point you need. Size it so it can be seen easily at the range your shooting. If your target allows a target can be glued to card board and cut so the bull is 18" low when the 2 edges are touching.

You probably will find the lighter charge prints higher than the 65 grain load you started with.

Try 1 F powder, my 50/70 sharps really likes 70 grains of 1 F with a 470 grain bullet.

Update: shot the 60 grain loads today and it printed much better. The top three shots are from before I blacked both sights, and figured out where to aim, which turned out to be a few inches below the aiming black. I put five in a row into the black. The three out the right were me jerking the trigger/flinching, but I still managed to put a few more in to the black. I'm going to try 55 grains next and take the chronograph with me.

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The M1866 Springfield sporter that fired it

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That is one handsome 66 sporter! 55 grains is still going to blast your cast through any corn cruncher under 300 pounds.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by missionary5155

That is one handsome 66 sporter! 55 grains is still going to blast your cast through any corn cruncher under 300 pounds.

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Thanks, it has been quite an odyssy to resurrect it. When I got it the stock was in five pieces held together by the metal bits, which were in surprisingly good condition. I was not able to do anything with the stock that was on it, but someone skilled had cut it down from the original 3-band M1861 Musket stock. They even re-carved it to accept the steel forend cap. They also blued the barrel and did a very nice job of it. It took a while, but I found a short stock that was rough carved, and had been inletted. I added a nice burl walnut extension, so that the one remaining barrel band could hold the barrel on. I then fitted the metal parts, sanded the stock, and carved oak leaves and acorns into the grip areas. Someone skilled could return it to it's former military configuration with a 3-band stock, but for now it will be used for flattening deer and silhouettes once I get it dialed in.

The reason your rifle is printing high is because that is how it is set up. Point blank range. The battle sights are set so the infantryman, trained to hold on the belt, will make a body hit from zero to I forget how far the maximum Point Blank Range is on an 1868 Springfield. On the 1873, that range is about 265 yards, but the 1868 is shorter. It can be looked up.
Fun Rifle and the 50 Govt. is a neat round. Your getting good info. Have fun!

I have two in that caliber myself. A model 1866 2nd Allin and a model 1868. Both with pristine bores, which is nice.

Lately I've been loading "regulation" loads with a .450 grain bullet and 70 grains of FFG powder. Definitely no air space as I'm probably compressing a bit.

If you go smokeless, Accurate's 5744 is very good as it's designed for these type of cartridges. Kick is pretty much negligible when I use this stuff.

It didn't like the 55 grain loads, I'm going back to 60 grains, which grouped much better. Not going to resize this time.

Looks like you have a beautiful gun. Even though it’s been modified, it’s a looker.

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Originally Posted by GregLaROCHE

Looks like you have a beautiful gun. Even though it’s been modified, it’s a looker.

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Thanks. Whoever modified bit before I got it did a very nice job. The barrel may have been shortened by the armory from 36" to 32 5/8", as some 1500 of these rifles were. But the armory certainly didn't blue it. Whoever did the blueing did a great job as it is about 95% still. It's clear it was sporterized long, long before I acquired it. My goal was to return it to its buffalo rifle glory, and get it shooting. Almost there.

Hi Garandpa:
I just acquired two .50-70's - an 1869 Trapdoor Cadet and an 1863 Sharps New Metallic carbine. How can I check if they're safe to use with BP loads?
Regards
Paul in SF.
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Good job you are ready to hunt. I have a 1st Allen conversion that I bought on auction at a local house. Got it for $75 bucks as the finish was crinkled badly. The barrel had a walnut at the 27-inch mark. Tore it apart.

Stock finish was simple alcohol and steel wool. Crinkling GONE. Refinished with artist linseed oil 10 plus coats wiped off every coat. The walnut bulged in the Government relined barrel I cut of at 24 1/2 inches and recrowned, the sight was resoldered same as original. Stock cut down and the frontend metal put on. Fit wood to it. Finished that wood.

The front strap of the action was Wigley. Removed screws cleaned them up. Re-soldered the top strap and screws tightened hot. Cleaned it up again. It shoots into 4 inches at 50 yards after tweaking the sights.

I am happy will shoot it this summer with picks of it and the Rem rolling block I made for my nephew using a barrel from my former inventory of barrels I used to sell online.

Getting my right eye cataract removed and new lens tomorrow morning. :happy dance:

Good luck Geezer - had both cataracts done years ago.