.460 S&W case, in a .45 Colt S/A, (Shot Load)

A number of years ago, I picked up a cheep puberty S/A, 45. A, PO, thought it was cool to wipe it with ‘vanish’, to make it look, ‘old’. Well, it makes blue steel, old looking, BUT, now you really have to have a coat of oil on it. (The PO forgot that).

Anyway, remembering a Very Old article in a, gun, mag/book, where a .444 Marlin case, was used, cut, fire formed, into a shot shell for the .45. So, this was the perfect gun to play with. Used the .444 Marlin case, cut the dia & thickness of the rim. (Friend has a lath), and cut to the cyl length.

After loaded with shot, (loading info later), I then (well lubed) the case and put in a 444 die, to get a smaller dia. top, so it would fit the cyl. Worked, but a little stiff to push out after fired.

Then (what the heck), Reamed the Cyl out to .480 ALL the way through. Much better. NOW, S&W made the .460 brass. So Easy. Just cut to length with the bandsaw, and trim to make the mouth square. Now, works even better. I wear this 45 S/A, when Lawn mowing. And when I see a rabbit, (in season or course), or a wood chuck. Don’t have to worry about, what is over that hill, like a solid projectile, in rifle or handgun.

I have a recipe/method, that works real well in the S/A, Colt Clone. Was wondering, (now that I broke down, and purchased a, .460 V). Has anybody, experimented with this in their .460, ??? I am thinking even better, cause a bit more case, thus a bit more shot?

Here is what is happening in the 45 clone. S&W .460 brass. Cut to a frogs hair less than the cyl. Then powder, then a .44 copper gas check, (cup down). Pushed into place by a modified die. Then the shot, 1/2 oz, (5’s/6’s, seem to work best) Have played with #12, to # 4 shot. (WOW, the #12 shot, no snake in the world would miss the getting hit in the head, with at least 15+ pellets, at 30-40 feet). Next a 45 copper gas check, on top, (cup up), and a roll crimp, to turn the top of the case, into the cup.

Played with, buffering, different shot sizes, a wad, of paper, overshot wad of ‘pop’ can alum, cardboard, glue. Nothing worked as well, as the copper gas check.

So now, before I start experimenting with the full length, .460 brass, in the S&W .460 V.
Is their anybody, who has done this?
Would love to hear your experiences.

As to Powder, I used Bullseye, 1: cause I had it, 2: I have used it, (Who doesn’t remember, ‘2.7g/148gWC in the .38’). 3: it is fast with small volume. (How Much? That’s your job, I don’t carry insurance to cover your experiments.) FPS, 700 +/- seems to work best. Running to 800 +, blows the patterns. 600 -, well little better patterns. But it didn’t see worth it. A Rabbit or Chuck, at 50 feet, is a, Rabbit or Chuck, No More !

Yes Virginia, their IS rifling, in a handgun. And the BATFE rules are it can NOT be taken out, (Unless you want to do a Whole Bunch of other things). So I live with it. And deal with the short, in-effective range of the shot, from a rifled bore. Which is, in my opinion/experience, is only 74.89%, BETTER, than the little ineffective, ’Plastic Shot Capsules’.

I think a full reaming to the cylinder of taurus judges might be the ticket to accuracy in .45 Colt using longer brass.

My loads using .410 brass use a fast powder quite like bullseye or W231, 6 gr under 3/8 oz of shot with quite good patterns using smaller shot like 7 1/2 or max #6. Tried #4 but the pattern is very thin.

Then I go up to #BB or #F with good results meaning 3 or 4 pellets on a crow sized target at about 15yds.

My gun however is a smoothbore judge 6.5" (I live in brazil so rifling restriction doesn't apply).

Please post pics, your project is quite unusual and very interesting.
Best regards

Quote:

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Originally Posted by victorfox

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Please post pics, your project is quite unusual and very interesting.
Best regards

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Was asked for some photos, so I found a roundtuit, and heer they are.
I have renamed this the, 10.5 x 43 RS, and only a dozen or so people, local, use this.
(Just guessing that, their are a WHOLE Lot of people, who have done the same thing, that I don’t know about)

No need to go through all the work up on the .444 cases, as S&W has now conveniently provided the .460 S&W case.

As stated before, Cut off the cases, with something, a frogs hair longer than the cylinder. Then Trim them flat, just a frogs hair under the Cyl length. Then chamfer the inside.

Now, decide if you will use them in a straight wall cyl, or ream out a cylinder to it’s end. (.480). Or use them in a not altered .45 Colt chamber.

Straight Wall Cyl: Powder, (fast burning), a .44 gas check, (Seated cup down), or a nitro wad, or a thick cut wad, (Back of a tablet). Then, (if you want) a ‘wad’, cut from a brown paper bag, or, dried coffee filters, rectangular shape, roll, and drop down the case. Then your shot, (with or without buffer), than a over shot wad, .45 cal gas check, (Cup up), and a generous roll crimp.

Not Altered Cyl: Take the cut/trimed case. Insert it in a carbide, .44 die, With Lub, far enough to make a neck. Measure or test it, in, ’that’, cyl you are going to use it in. The rest, the same, Except, for the over shot wad. Use another 44 cal gas check. These will come out of the Cyl, just most will take a little heavier, ‘push’. If it’s to much for you, or your firearm, reduce the load a bit, and/or make sure your chamber holes are smooth.

Over Powder wad: Really does not matter much, as long as it keeps the Powder and Shot Separate. And the whole load, is, ’solid’, from one end to the other, it is easy. Have used a thin, ’nitro’ wad, tablet backing, milk carton wads, pop can amum. I use the 44 gas check, cause I have a box full of them.

Over Shot Wads: This is where the copper gas check works best. Holding the shell together under recoil, of other shells fired.
I have tired, all Sorts of wads, and glue, and they all will fail, if subject to recoil multiple times.
Single shot, doesn’t matter, as long as what you use, holds things together, until you shoot it. Problem comes, (in my case), using a S/A revolver. Load one, skip one, load 4, then cock and drop, your fixed firing pin, will be on the, Burying Money hole, (Empty Cyl hole). If a modern, .45 Colt, with transfer bar, 6 loads is your choice. When I shoot one or two, then reload, then shoot one or two again, the remaining rounds, may be subject to several dozen, ‘recoil’, cycles. That’s where the crimped in, copper gas check, does it’s job. The variable here is, Gas Check, cup up, or cup down? Up to you.

Load: Won’t give you a, ’specific’, load. (I don’t carry insurance for Your experiments). But some hints.
Weigh, ALL, the items, you want to, ’shoot’ out. Then, “Look To The Books”, for a powder charge, which works, with about 700 fps +/-. Next, a, ‘dirty’ , bore here, is your friend, (Perhaps the Only time one is), As you, CAN NOT, take out the rifling of your handgun. (Per Law). The, lead pellets, ARE, Softer, than the steel in your bore. They may fill up lots of the rifling, with lead, but Lead is Softer, than steel, and it CAN, be cleaned out. Shot: Have experimented with #12 to #4. What works best? Again, that is for you to decide, for the reason, you are going to load it for. (I have two loads, that work well. #9’s, and #5/6’s, Snake & Rabbit/woodchuck) Seems like, the smaller the shot size, the, ‘dirtier’ the bore is, it will produce a better pattern. OH, and this is all ’Smokeless Powder’, not Black powder.

So, these work, in a old S/A Colt clone, (drilled out cyl), and in a unaltered, .45 Ruger. (Bottle Neck Case).
One reason, when I started this, their was only the T/C Contender, that, could shoot a .45 Colt or .410.
(Outside of the people, that had a well worn ’Trapdoor’, and often shot 2-1/2” .410 in them)

Who has a Governor/Judge, that is going to try this?
But, never having one of them, (I do keep my eye out for a cheep used one)
I think I would just re-load a .410.

Anyway, another, ‘experiment’, for you.

Attachment 174128Attachment 174129Attachment 174130Attachment 174131Attachment 174132Attachment 174133

Not very different in shape to my fireformed cases (magtech 410).
Attachment 174149

In fact since I can't get 45 colt brass in my country, I'm cutting the .410 brass to 45 length so I can load larger round balls :).

Also, given the smaller payload I shoot, I also find the shorter cases better to glue the over shot wad, makes work easier.

Nice work.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by victorfox

... since I can't get 45 colt brass in my country, ...

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victorfox,

I can see, that the brass case, has fire formed, to the larger size of the .45 Colt. and, ‘stayed’, the same, for the .410 portion of the cyl. That would be very interesting to, ‘play’ with. But I am thinking, I would just play with, various, .410 hand loads.

Smoothbore Handgun. That would be fun, but unless one, jumped through, a lot, (I Mean a LOT) of hoops, here that is not possible. If you can do S.B. in a handgun, and yours will be used for, ’shot’ only, I would say, Ream Out the Cyl !

If you can’t buy, .460, or .45 Colt cases where you are. Perhaps they could be sent to you? After all, (not primed), they are JUST, pieces of inert brass ! Can you get, .454 Casull?, (Only about 1/8” longer. The .45 C/.454 C/.460, are All the same, except length.

Thanks for the offer but really can't get them due to the law. I live in brazil. In fact like in every socialist place YOU CAN do certain things, like having a 45 Colt, 454 Casull or even a 500 S&W. You just need to be filthy rich and bave specific friends, because the paperwork is as expensive as an entry level motorcycle for example, after it's done you must request a permit to purchase the gun (in such caliber or any of those considered restricted), it will be analysed and the officer may have woken with a foul mood and stamp NO... then you have to wait and try again. Among other stuff. I believe it's easier to deal with BATF so you can figure how things go here...

A piece of brass in the pocket have put a bunch of guys behind the bars here... yes, just the brass, no load no gun. That's the law.

So we do as we can to loophole it, like doing what I said. Just to buy boxer primers for example, you must have the permit I mentioned earlier and also a reloading permit. Then you must buy from the factory, there are no over the counter boxers, only berdan and 209.

I just bought a judge because I could handload for it loopholing a shotgun handloading permission, not because I really like the 410 handgun thing, which in the end came quite useful to me... :) so I can afford to shoot a little more than if I had say a 38 or 380 (the other calibers allowed for those who don't have the Army license.)

Things are so stupid here, if I had say a 357 (with Army permit) and shot it in self defense, I'd lose said license and would be sued.. So I'd need a 38/380 for self defense and a 357/45/500/308 to hunt (boars only) and to show my friends at the gun club...

I'm going to give a try with larger round balls in the cut cases before thinking in reaming the cylinder. Not sure even if our gunsmiths here are able to do such tasks... believe me, most don't know even how a rifle is rifled... Many just change parts. The older better guys are already dead or gave up the profession after the 2003 hunted them like witches... Gone are the days when the gunsmith could make a usable gun from a bunch of junk steel and spare parts.

Thanks again.

I've used 444 Marlin brass for similar 45 Colt shotshells years ago, and am now working on 460 S&W shotshells. Interesting that you had to lathe turn the 444 rims thinner; they always worked as-is in my 45 Colt Blackhawks and now my 460 S&W.

I only have a few shot loads through the 460 so far, but using a .410 shot wad seems to give the best patterns, even though shot capacity is slightly reduced. I'm also using 45 ACP shotshell dies (the seater anyway) to seat a card wad at the case mouth and form the heavy roll crimp rounded nose that those dies produce.

I'm also experimenting with stackable wadcutters, a sort of buckshot if you will; I modified a Lee mold to drop 80gr wadcutters that look like little coins. 4 to 6 of those in a 460 S&W case is a pretty decent payload, and reasonably good patterns are possible.

Multiple round balls were successful in my 45 Colts years ago, but I haven't got around to trying them in the 460 yet. IIRC two .495" round balls sized down to .452, lubed with LLA, gave good accuracy and patterns when fired at ~ 600 fps in the 45 Colt. It was a real thumper on rabbits, just bowled them over.

This 460 is a great development for shot and buck loads, tons of case capacity!

OK, got motivated to try some shot loads after posting here.

444 Marlin cases
.410 shot wads cut slightly shorter than the case mouth
~210gr of #7-1/2 shot
.070" .410 card wad, or Hornady copper gas check
5.2gr Bullseye.

The loads with a copper gas check are easier on the brass, but the patterns aren't as good; the gas check blows out the center of the pattern sometimes.

The loads with a card wad are crimped in the RCBS 45 ACP shotshell die, leaving the case mouth looking a lot like the CCI 45 Auto shotshells. These loads patterned very well, enough to be effective on small game inside of 25 yards or so. Annealing the case mouth helps a lot to re-use these cases with the heavy roll crimp.

Velocity with 5.2gr Bullseye was right about 1010 fps in my 7.5" Performance Center 460. 4.5gr gave 900 fps, with no improvement in the shot pattern.

Nice to see your results. The powder I have here is about same burn rate as BE. I use 6gr under 5/16 or 3/8 oz shot, could never chrono it.

I think the over shot GC or too thick card is the problem. My loads pattern well but I never use anything thicker than a tablet back/cover. Sometimes I punch wads from toilet paper cores and glue 2 or 3 over the shot.

I was punching card wads from my primer boxes; that always worked pretty well. Today is the first I've tried the .070" thick .410 card wads, they work great too, much better than copper gas checks.

I tried some thin (.008") aluminum gas checks too, but the patterns still weren't much better than with copper checks. Card stock is the way to go.

I'm going to give this a try and see how it goes. If I'm reading this correctly (gotta wonder sometimes) I'll need 460 brass sized with a 44mag carbide sizer for the 45LC. The over powder wad to me is pretty simple but the over shot card I'll be doing differently. Here's a picture of a 380 I have out for field trials and I plan on using the same crimp on the 45LC as I did on the 380.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/atta...6&d=1471547987

Grumpa, is that star crimp done with the custom Hornady dies, or something else?

It's called a notching die that I use for my swaging projects, the die is just screwed down further to give it more of a rather large roll crimp.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/atta...8&d=1393184574

And the die came from BTSniper who hangs out in the swaging section of the site, who also has a VS page. He in turn got it from CH4D I believe....

Edit: I looked on his VS page and here it is....
BTX (xtp) Universal Multi Caliber Notch Die
$195

Cool, thanks.

I just noticed a few weeks ago Hornady lists a die set to form shotshell crimps like that in their 2016 catalog. Don't know what they cost though.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GRUMPA

I'm going to give this a try and see how it goes. If I'm reading this correctly (gotta wonder sometimes) I'll need 460 brass sized with a 44mag carbide sizer for the 45LC.

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It worked well with the .444 cases, in the Colt Clone. (Before I reamed them out to .480.)
They were a little more sticky, for ejection, but could still do it by hand.

I suppose it's a 'belt/spenders' thing, (using a Lubed case, and a Carbide die), but it worked easy.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by yondering

... .410 shot wads cut slightly shorter than the case mouth ... ... in my 7.5" Performance Center 460.

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As I have what works, in the clone, probably will not change it a lot.
However, I see you are shooting a "X" frame, .460.

In a weak moment, at a gun show, I picked up a 5", .460.
Have not played with, 'shot' in it yet.
I am concerned with the Comps.
Is yours accumulating plastic crud, from the wad?
I wonder if a couple of wraps, inside the case, of coffee filter paper would work?

Thinking coffee filter paper, would be the strongest?

Thanks

Some remarks, prefaced with the caveat that they are not criticism, only comment:

A credible 45 Cal revolver shot shell need not have any perceivable recoil, so the various gas check usage listed seems unnecessary complexities.

A simple over powder wad and fibre wad with a plain old card overshot wad glued in place will serve very effectively and will hold together just fine. Provided you get a good gas seal with the overpowder wad and fibre wad, it will function perfectly well. Like a 410 shot shell, wad column pressure is not that important in a 45 cal shot shell.


The "dirty bore" trick is quite a good way to mitigate pattern deterioration form the rifling.

I only use mine for snake patrol with #9 shot and a stock 45 Colt shell is fine, but using the 460 shell to allow a reasonable load of #5 shot for your intended use makes good sense.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by yondering

I've used 444 Marlin brass for similar 45 Colt shotshells years ago, and am now working on 460 S&W shotshells. Interesting that you had to lathe turn the 444 rims thinner; they always worked as-is in my 45 Colt Blackhawks and now my 460 S&W. ...

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Yea, To turn freely, I had to do the Dia of the Rim, and the Thickness of the rim. (In the clone)
Before, I got, 'Precise', using a friends lathe, I just put them in a drill press, and used a hand file, to take the Dia down. And the thickness, was just when the impressed head stamp was gone.

Never, tested any .444 brass in another 45C, or the .460.

Don't think I'll have to now. (Thanks S&W for the .460)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MnSpring

As I have what works, in the clone, probably will not change it a lot.
However, I see you are shooting a "X" frame, .460.

In a weak moment, at a gun show, I picked up a 5", .460.
Have not played with, 'shot' in it yet.
I am concerned with the Comps.
Is yours accumulating plastic crud, from the wad?
I wonder if a couple of wraps, inside the case, of coffee filter paper would work?

Thinking coffee filter paper, would be the strongest?

Thanks

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No issue at all with the compensator on mine with shotshells. Granted, it's the Performance Center version, which has a different compensator, YMMV. I don't think the wad touches the comp at all though; I don't see any signs of it, and the shot patterns are excellent, very much like an open cylinder .410 shotgun.