Thank you turbo.
I think I will stay with the Lyman slug for now.
Don Verna
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Thank you turbo.
I think I will stay with the Lyman slug for now.
Don Verna
What kind of timeframe are we looking at on this one. Thanks jasonQuote:
Originally Posted by 338RemUltraMag
Greetings
Has there been a call for payment ?
Mike in Peru
Thoughts on accuracy in a smoothbore?
(I have a Beretta 1200FP I need to feed, and I've become inclined to think 00 buck may not be sufficiently good medicine for ticked off pitbulls and the like. I may go the triball route though...still considering that. I've done nil casting for a while now, too busy.)
It's a hollow base design so as drawn without any hollow base pin profile modification accuracy from a smooth bore gun shouldn't be any worse then factory foster slugs. Modify the hollow base pin slightly so it don't thin out the skirt quite as much at the bottom and accuracy from a smooth bore should be better then factory foster slugs.
turbo1889
Lot of good info you posted. Your GF's "animation" and posts are excellent. I'm surprised you were able to get her to stand down. She seems to be a force to be reckoned with. I was going through some of the older threads and wondered what happened to her. In any event, I have learned a lot from what you have posted. Thanks
It is possible for me to win a fight with her, however, it takes such an extensive outlet of time and energy and possibly even blood, sweat, and tears that I only will do so on things where it is absolutely necessary.
It's like going to war with Germany, don't do it unless you have too.
Could you take me off of list for mold. Jason
I would like my name removed from the "buy" list.
BB
Does a rifled barrel require the thinner skirt? (Just curious as to why it's thinner, rather than thicker, that that would be ideal for a smoother bore, since that seems counter intuitive to my noobish understanding i.e. I would have thought a rifled barrel would have required a thicker skirt.)Quote:
Originally Posted by turbo1889
For a slug fired from a smooth bore gun unless its a simple round ball slug the slug must be "aerodynamically stabilized" or in other words balanced and shaped in such a manner so that it continues to fly nose first straight and true down range. Just like an arrow fired from a bow that has fletching on its back end. Slugs fired from a rifled barrel do not need to be so stabilized since the gyro spin imparted to them by the rifling in the bore takes care of the stabilization issue.
Long story short, shoot a slug from a rifled barrel gun and so long as it its not off center balanced it really don't matter a huge amount the spin will take care of the stability issue and it will hit nose first and be fairly accurate regardless.
However, with a smooth bore gun because the shape and balance is so much more critical the finer details start to matter a whole lot more.
I am of a personal opinion based upon my experience and testing of slugs so far that most hollow base slugs unless loaded with a fairly soft load have skirt walls that are too thin and the skirt will at least partially collapse under the load of all the pressure on the wad-column from below during the trip down the barrel which results in the slug exiting the muzzle with the skirt unevenly distorted which translates to losses in accuracy. The reason this translates into such accuracy losses is because having a finely balanced and well shaped and minimally-distorted slug while it is flying through the air down range is much more important for a smooth bore gun because the slug must rely on its balance and shape in order to remain aerodynamically stabilized to fly straight and true and there is no gyro spin to do this job like when fired from a rifled barrel gun.
It is my experience that a bare minimum wall thickness on a hollow base skirt is about 0.08" and preferably a higher practical minimum of about 0.10" wall thickness is necessary in most shotgun slug loads to keep the skirt from significantly and unevenly collapsing under the firing loads during the trip down the barrel. Most factory foster slugs have skirt wall thicknesses with at least some weak spots well below that, and many factory slug molds also barely have enough wall thickness on the skirt to have the minimum strength needed to prevent such significant distortion of the slugs skirt during firing.
I have personally proven to myself that having just a little thicker skirt walls makes a significant improvement in accuracy in a smooth bore gun and the substantial reduction in the distortion of the slugs skirts as a result has been confirmed by careful capture and examination of the fired slugs using the snow drift methodology which is the best way I know of to stop a bullet or slug without mangling it in the process of stopping it so that its actual in-flight condition after it exits the muzzle and before impacting a normal target can be examined.
This group buy slug design as drawn in the diagram in the OP of this thread has a minimum skirt wall thickness of 0.082" which is just barely within what I personally consider a bare minimum. Don't get me wrong, this is a considerable improvement and is a thicker skirt wall then many factory foster slug loads and there is the additional benefit of being able to cast the slug with a little harder, stronger, and tougher alloy then just pure lead which also helps with making the skirt walls stronger and less subject to distortion during firing that can cause accuracy problems down range. But I personally would have preferred a little more thickness in the 0.10"-to-0.13" range which in my experience is a nearly fool proof skirt wall thickness for a hollow base shotgun slug to prevent significant collapse and distortion of the slugs skirt during firing.
Thing with a group buy though is that the design is always a compromise of what everyone wants. Many people don't like the hollow base skirt walls as thick as I do. I'm just glad that its as thick as it is on this design which meets my "bare minimum" standard and I can always modify the pin the make the skirt walls a little thicker if I need too. Something I've already done with several factory molds already.
To continue the arrow analogy, you have to make the fletching fins on the back of the arrow strong enough so that when the arrow is launched they don't get torn up and distorted because that will hurt accuracy down range because they are what keep the arrow stable and flying straight and true. Same goes for a hollow base slug fired from a smooth bore gun, you have to make the skirt of the hollow base with thick enough and strong enough walls to not get torn up, collapsed, and significantly distorted on the trip down the barrel because that hollow base skirt is what keeps the slug flying straight and true once it exits the muzzle.
I personally think this design is a pretty good one for a compromise group buy design. There are some things I personally would have done a little differently and a few areas where it just meets my bare minimum standards but over all its way better then what usually passes for a decent shotgun slug design anywhere else.
Turbo,
Again, a good post and very educational. It is great to see posts from someone who has walked the walk and has opinions based on tests and observations.
Thank you for sharing your experience
Don Verna
I updated my original post (#77) to request two (2) of these molds. Thanks!
Ah ha. Thank you, sir. I was only thinking of in-flight and not the launch. Makes since. Many thanks indeed.Quote:
Originally Posted by turbo1889
Do you use ballistic product's 3" hulls? I have a box of once fired Remington gun club and iirc premier hulls that cost me 2cents and 3cents respectively; I'm not sure if those will suffice for this sort of slug.
I'd like an accurate result; and I'm tempted, to be candid, to just buy 150rds of Brenneke's purportedly accurate for smoothbore offerings and be done with it since I rarely get to target shoot these days any more. But since I cast anyway, I'd also like a good slug mold and load (I'm sitting on 8lbs of GreenDot) as that would allow me to take a group of people target shooting and not result in me thinking of $1+ gone every time they pulled the trigger. (I'd rather them 'spend' my casting and reloading time than money straight out of my pocket.)
I'm going to have to decide on going with this slug mould or going with the tri-ball mould I found on their site. Choices choices. I'll plan on deciding the end of this upcoming week. I could have Buckshot or someone else here modify the pin for me after all. If I go for this slug, I may end up also getting a 1 or 1 1/8 slug designed to fit in a cheap claybuster wad (assuming it can be done with accuracy. I would be happy with 3" at 50yrds).
Sorry, I rambled a bit on this post. Thanks again for your insight above.
I'm with turbo all the way here. I have shot many hollow base slugs and recovered many I have shot and that others have shot and almost all have collapsed skirts due to being too thin, too soft or both.
I have recovered factory slugs that show obvious signs that the wad was driven into the slug's butt and distorted it. I have recovered Gualandi slugs that show amazingly bad skirt distortion from the cushion leg ramming up into the slug's skirt.
I had about given up on hollow base slugs and gone all Brenneke style attached wad slugs. However, being as lazy as I am I find it a lot of work so am rehashing some hollow base designs. I have followed turbo's lead and beefed up the skirts considerably. Unfortunately today even that didn't help me! The only decent groups I got were from 0.662" round balls in shotcups and from a hybrid hollow base/Brenneke design ~ that one did okay so will get more testing.
Sorry, I guess this really has little to do with the group buy except that I didn't get in on it for a few design reasons, some of which turbo has mentioned. Mostly, since am bent on making a smoothbore do what I want, this slug didn't appeal to me because the hollow base is too shallow and the skirt is too thin ~ in my opinion. It may do well in a rifled barrel but I do believe a thicker skirt would be better. It is also heavier than I wanted.
Just my opinion.
Longbow
@ Dannix
When I actually buy new 12ga. hulls I buy 3-1/2" length heavy duty high brass ones and reload them at that length until the mouth gets to bad to do a good crimp and then cut them down to 3" and load at that length until once again can't get a good crimp and then cut down to 2-3/4" and load at that length and finally cut them down to short 2" and do single use fire and toss tactical loads (more shells in the mag) and really light bird shot loads.
So if I buy them I buy the big heavy duty ones and get all the use out of them I can. As to used hulls, I'm a total scrounger and will load most anything with the exception of fiber/paper base wad hulls that I can't be sure haven't gotten wet and had their base-wads damaged as a result. Remington single piece compression formed hulls I really like.
For this slug you would be much better off if you were sitting on an 8-lb. jug of Blue Dot, Green dot is too fast for this heavy of a slug. Blue Dot would be perfect. Wrong dot color.
As to Brenneke slugs they are pretty much the gold standard of smooth bore accuracy for a factory load.
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In response to what LongBow had to say:
Skirt wall is not as thick as I would like but I think it will be just barely thick enough to get some decent loads without modification "out of the box". With any group buy designs their is going to be compromises. I'm just glad the skirt walls are as thick as they are. A simple stack of nitro cards over the powder and under the slug, maybe a plastic gas seal over the powder in a 3" or longer load but probably just nitros in 2-3/4" loads and possibly a jaw-breaker hard candy ball or similar of appropriate size in the hollow base of the slug should do the trick without any modification to the mold "out of the box" and produce a decent load.
Also, as to the weight of the slug (and also the nose shape), lets be clear. This slug design is a "thumper" and lets not pretend its anything other. If we were talking a street brawl this slug is like showing up with a base-ball bat not a switch-blade. If that's what you want then this is a good option, if that's not what your looking for . . . . .
Double post
Joshua,
I am sorry Chris hasn't been following up on this. For the "normal" type cutters for bullet molds we typically charge $xxx each. We will need to know if it is for Aluminum, Brass or Iron. Typical turn around is about a week and a half once we receive the order. I will need to talk to the grinder today and make sure the nose pour isn't going to be an issue, I don't think it will, but that is atypical and the price may need to go up a bit because of that.* Again, sorry for the lack of response from Chris, I will get you taken care of. Matt.
guys,
I have been absent from this thread for a while, life hit hard and in a short time i had a baby, found out my 1st may have a very horrible disease, and have not been able to get a reply from the cherry maker. So i will update this thread when I wake up. I just got back from working a 14 hr overnight shift. Above is the reply I got from the tool maker.
Thank for the update 338, good things come to those that wait, I can wait.
Congrats on the baby and prays to you and yours.
Gents, I'm going to have to pull out of this one. I'm #3 on the list. I've got some unexpected medical bills. My son slipped on some ice today, broke his wrist and chipped a tooth his today.