Forming 8 X 57 (8mm Mauser) into 7.7 Japanese - couple ?"

My brass forming experience is very limited other than converting a few pieces of 30-06 in to * X 57 to try it.

I have some 8 X 57 brass that was converted from 30-06 (mixed head stamp civilian brass). I load 8 X 57 for shooting reduced cast rounds out of my 1905 Danzig GEW98 Mauser.

I am being gifted two nice Type 99 Arisaka rifles by a cousin - his Dad brought them back at the end of the war - I have seen and examined them numerous times over the years - unaltered and hung over the fireplace - earlier rifles with great bores, very minimal wear, etc.

I will get the rifles later this summer when we get together so I am accumulating what I need to reload - have a set of Lee dies coming, a NOE 314-262 FN PB mold, etc.

I have done a search on here as far as converting 30-06 brass to 7.7 and found several good threads. My intent was to pick up some 30-06 brass and converts trim, etc. - but - in one of the threads, several fellows mentioned that 8 X 57 (8mm Mauser) brass was a very easy conversion and that the only thing was that it would end up about 1mm short - i.e. - neck 1mm short.

In looking at the case dimensions of the 8 X 57 and the 7.7 brass in my Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook - 3rd edition - it looks like it would be a minimal "resize" in resizing the neck and bumping the shoulder down.

My plans are to only shoot cast and to use Red Dot as I do in my 8 X 57 Mauser in reduced loads for plinking and shooting the Arisaka rifles - not pushing them hard or hunting with them - strictly cans, paper and gongs at various yardages.

It doesn't seem like the somewhat shorter neck on the 7,7 converted from 8 X 57 should be an issue or a problem for what I am doing. However . . . I'm looking for anything from those more experienced than I am in regards to if there is anything I am not seeing or should be aware of if I use the 8 X 57 brass to do the conversion to 7.7?

Should I be annealing the neck and shoulder of the 8 X 57 before resizing to 7,.7 in a Lee FL sizing die?

Or . . if I don't have any issue resizing the brass as it is now, should I be annealing the neck and shoulder AFTER I convert?

In looking at the dimensions of the 7.7 case, it appears that the neck length above the shoulder is around .300. In looking t the drawing of the lead bullet that the mold I purchased there will be right around .300 seated down into the neck (the mold was designed for 303 Brit, 7.62 and 7.7). If the 7.7 cartridge case converted from 8 X 57 has a neck about 1mm shorter than normal, I figure the boolit can just be seated a tad deeper than normal and still not be protruding into the shoulder area very far and with reduced loads of Red Dot (starting load data in the Lyman CBH shows a beginning load of 10.00 grains and I will probably be using somewhere between 8.00 to 10.00 grains). With a light crimp, it should work just fine.

Any hints, tips, etc. on converting the 8 X 57 into 7,7 Japanese or things to look out for would be greatly appreciated.

AS far as to "why" I want to use the 8 X 57 - I have it and enough that I can convert around 100 casings and still have a good supply of the 8 X 57 for the Mauser. Ifr there is a reason not to use the
8 X 57 brass - then I'll have to start looking for some 30-06 brass to convert and a trim die for the 7.7 Japanese - with the current supply issues - the 7,7 trim dies are either out of stock or when I have seen them, they are priced at about three times what they normally sell for.

Thanks for any info / help - greatly appreciated!

No offence, but if cases are available (and these are from Norma & PPU) I would use factory cases.

I have a 6.5 Jap and only use Norma cases. I also have a Contender barrel in 256 Winchester Mag for which I have collected over 100 factory cases. Two 32 Remington's (a Model 8 and a Model 14), again only factory cases. The only reformed brass I have to use is for Contender barrels in 17 Ackley Bee and 22 K-Hornet.
The brass is out there, you just may have to wait for it to show up.

My two cents :
Take what you have and make it work . If 8 X 57 brass can be reformed and you have plenty ... do it.
Many years ago in the age B.C. , (before computers) the only 7.5 Swiss cases I could get were all Berdan primed . This was 1960's for a surplus K-11 Schmidt Rubin . Read in a book that 284 Winchester case could be used although after resizing ...1mm short in the neck ... went down to LGS and bought all the 284 Win. once fired cases he had and reloaded them for the next 30 years ...10 years ago I bought some new 7.5 Swiss PPU cases just because 284 Win. had become hen's teeth and the 7.5 cases were cheaper . PPU was making 7.5 Swiss for the new K31's therefore plentiful then .
The 1mm short neck didn't affect a thing , I loaded them normally , seating cast gas checked to the base of the neck / shoulder junction and a few J-words to the cannelure .
The shotened neck didn't hurt a thing ...don't trim them and after a while ...they ain't short no mo !
I'm from the take what you got and make it do camp .
My Mom always said " Sitting around wishing , hoping and waiting got you nowhere . "

I would anneal the brass and then reform ... my 284 Win to 7.5 Swiss ... I just ran them through the resizing dies ... didn't know what annealing was back then .
Gary

Thanks. Yea . . I have seen both the PPU and the Norma brass in stock at one or two places.

Just a personal thing - but I don't like PPU brass. I have used it in other calibers and wasn't the happy with it. The Norma brass is tops - but one place I checked - it was running around $1.25 a cartridge case in a quantity of 100.

It's not that I'm cheap . . . . but I use 30-06 brass that has been referred to 8 X 57 all the time. I also have 8 X 57 brass that started life as 8 X 57, All of it is kept in one tote with the baggies of brass clearly marked as to what it is so there should never be any confusion on the converted 30-06.

The Arisaka rifles aren't going to be heavily used. My time isn't worth anything (I'm retired} so as long as I have the quantity of 8 X 57 that I have - I figured it wold be a fairly easy transition into 7.7. If I didn't have the 8 X 57 - I would e looking for some civilian 30-06 brass to convert to 7.7. Not only to save a little but to get the experience in converting some brass - life is a learning experience. When I get the brass converted to 7.7 - I'm talking maybe 100 cases - it will be kept in 50 round plastic cartridge containers with the head stamps coated with black magic marker to indicate to me that it is 7.7 - and the 7,7 will be the only bottleneck brass that I shoot that will be marked in that manner.

If the conversion of the brass doesn't work out - I still have the option to purchase some Norma 7.7 - but for now, its more for the experience than anything else.

One problem you will have is that the chamber at the base of the 7.7 is slightly larger than either the 8x57 or the 30-06. This is not a problem unless you plan to full length resize, which will be very difficult given the expansion. The other issue is that the case will be slightly crooked in the chamber the first time you fire them - but this can be easily fixed with a couple turns of Scotch tape. This will center the base of the case in the chamber for the initial case fire forming - and not needed thereafter.

+10 about Wayne Smith’s tape idea to center the body of the case .......

I would also suggest saving your newly formed 8x57 from ‘06 cases and instead convert some more ‘06 directly into 7.7 Japanese. That allows you you to hit the length you desire.

Three44s

I did exactly that for my first 99 back when it was Norma brass or naught. I just lubed 8x57mm brass and ran it through a Lee FL 7.7 Japanese die. They were a bit short but that didn't matter. I only used bulk Remington 180 gr RN bullets from Midway and it worked out well.

Sent from my SM-A716U using Tapatalk

Never saw a "gifted rifle." Seen a lot of gifted people and rifles that were gifts but, never knew an inanimate object to have any skills.

Quote:

---

I would also suggest saving your newly formed 8x57 from ‘06 cases and instead convert some more ‘06 directly into 7.7 Japanese. That allows you you to hit the length you desire.

Three44s

---

I agree. Besides being 1mm short, the 8mm-7.7 conversion does not involve trimming or much movement of the shoulder, both steps that must be completed in many case conversions. Using 30/06 brass will give you a chance to practice both steps. Also, 30/06 brass is a lot easier to come by than 8mm mauser. Finally, reducing the diameter of the case mouth and neck could lead to thickening of the brass in those areas, this is typically corrected by neck turning. The chambers on 7.7 Japanese rifles are generally loose enough that neck thickness shouldn't be an issue for converted 8mm brass, but neck wall thickening does come into play in other case conversion scenarios. Just my 2 cents. Good luck.

I use 30.06 to form 7.7, 7.65 and 8mm.
Easy to form.
With cast boolets, they last a ling time.
PM sent

When I form, I like to go is small steps.
Less chance of krinkling.
To make 7.7 or 7.65, I start with a 8mm die.
Remove the decapping rod.
Anneal and lube the 30.06 case.
Adjust die to size just short of needed shoulder length.
Then size with the correct caliber die.
I like forming in small steps.
Less stress for the brass.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sharps4590

Never saw a "gifted rifle." Seen a lot of gifted people and rifles that were gifts but, never knew an inanimate object to have any skills.

---

Go back and read it again.

I want to thank everyone for your advice, suggestions, experiences and tips - please know how much it is appreciated!

Like anything else that a person has not done before - you read about it, try to research it and in the end, hope that you will do it right. I watched a number of videos on converting 30-06 brass to 7.7 - odd thing is that so far, I haven't run across one that gave the tip about the scotch tape (which I appreciated hearing and learning about). And, like anything new, a person (at least me at times) has a tendency to "over think" things as they get ready to try something new - when, the only way you can really learn it is to dive in and get your feet wet.

It has been pretty amazing in regards to the help and advice I have been offered. I posted a WTB for a 7,7 die set and I had a number of PMs that offered not only help, but advice and their experiences with the 7,7 as well - that is what is so great about this site - members helping members.

After a lot of reading, looking at videos and listening to the advice of others - I will do the forming using 30-06 brass. As a number of folks have pointed out, using 30-06 brass will dive me the most experience of re-forming and trimming - unlike the 8 X 57 brass which would require very little to reform it but end up with a shorter case length than normal. I have had a good member here offer me some 30-06 brass to do the forming and his kind offer is greatly appreciated as it will allow me to get the most out of the project and learn a number of new things - and an old dog like me can learn something new every day!

And - I can't end this without addressing sharps4590's comments about "gated rifles"! LOL

sharps4590 - you have to understand that I look at things a bit different than others at times. The rifles are being given to my by my cousin - are they "gifted rifles" or "gifted rifles"? Hmmmmm

Monday was Memorial Day and it's a day I, like others, revere. I got to thinking about number of friends who paid"paid the price" and then it is also a day I often reflect on my father-in-law. He was an mud slogger in the 34th Division - he started out as a replacement in North Africa - the fellow he replaced that had been killed, ironically, was his best friend from high school. After North Africa, he was in not he invasion of Italy - somehow was lucky enough to survive Casino, and near the end of the war, the was in Northern Italy at the Po Valley. Eisenhower needed bodies to beef up the lines as they neared the invasion of Germany, so my father-in-law was pulled fro the lines and sent there - the "powers that be" thinking that after they had been on the line for so long it would be better duty. Hmmm . . he arrived there just in time for the Battle of the Bulge and then the invasion of Germany. He would need take to his kids about it - he wold talk to me but at the strangest times like when we were in the middle of the woods in the UP o Michigan deer hunting. For as long as I knew him, I saw signs of PTSD right up until the day he died. He once told me that when on the line, he was constantly scanning for "cover" in case they were fired on - maybe that's what kept him alive? In all, he earned 5 battle stars and the CIB twice. So there are a lot of times when I think about him that I wonder . was he "gifted" (by God) and is that what kept him alive? Or was he "gifted" (smart) to know "how" to survive? So . . . .

When it comes to the two Arisaka rifles that my cousin is giving me . . are they "gifted" by being allowed to survive the war like so many milsurp rifles . . . or are they "gifted" because the did survive the war? :-) We'll never know.

By the way sharps4590 - my wife and I go past your neck of the woods - Rolla, Missouri - twice a year on our way to and on our way back from Arizona. A beautiful area and "good people" . . . . I'm guessing that you were "gifted" to be able to live in such a beautiful part of the country? :-)

BTW - the idea for using Scotch tape came from reading Donnley and Townsley, not my idea. Errors in that book but lots of useful information as well.

for my 6.5 JAPANESE rifle I use 220 SWIFT BRASS FOR IT. i don't have a SWIFT so I have no use for that brass it works fine. just lightly lube the case and run thru the 6.5 dies and trim. for the 7.7 I also use 8m/m and 7m/m , and 270 , and 30/06. hope this helps?

gifted rifle, that is when the rifle knowes more than you do!!!

You're on a Slippery slope here, once you figure out what you can do, you start looking for the next challenge.

Gateway drug kind thing.

I started with making 260 Remington.

Then the 7/8 mausers.

Then the 221 Fireball.

Then the 7.62x38r from 223.

And a dozen others.

Currently working on 280 Ross.

IT NEVER ENDS!

STOP NOW, BEFORE YOU NEED AN INTERVENTION!

I have been reloading the 7.7 for about 30 years. Started loading for a cousin. He had a few Norma cases and was delighted that I could make new ones from mil-surp 30/06. When he moved to California, he gave me the rifle, so I made more new cases from 30/06, loaded with both jacketed .312 and cast 311299 GC. Three years ago another cousin's son managed to shoot expert in the navy, so I gave this rifle to him along with a bunch of reloads. He was delighted and the rifle stays in the family.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bedbugbilly

By the way sharps4590 - my wife and I go past your neck of the woods - Rolla, Missouri - twice a year on our way to and on our way back from Arizona. A beautiful area and "good people" . . . . I'm guessing that you were "gifted" to be able to live in such a beautiful part of the country? :-)

---

Gifted is an adjective, not a verb.

"Blessed" would be a much more correct use of a word for where I live, especially as Governor Parsons is going to sign the 2nd Amendment Protection Act. I'm no more gifted, at anything, than a rifle and, thank you. There must be something here...other than I was raised not far from here and most of my family is close by. I fled this state 3 times and swore I'd never come back. Once, and the first time, was back to Arizona. Holy Cow!!! The way it changed in the 13 years since I was stationed there in '73 and '74!! Last time was Wyoming and I miss Wyoming every day. That was as close to heaven on earth as I'll experience. Family obligations, my wife's and mine, and guilt brought us back home and, here I'll die. Here I am, retired not 40 miles from where I grew up.

bbb, that should be a fairly straightforward forming project. I can't imagine you will have any real difficulties if you take your time. It would be cool to put the old rifles back to use.

That's an...inspiring story about your Father-in-law. Quite a man. I can do nothing more than bow my head in the presence of he and like individuals. My only combat was on the beaches of Arizona keeping T-38's in the air, right after Viet-Nam. From the stories I read, like yours and Dad talking about Korea from July 1950 until November of '51, I am beyond humbled and in awe of those men, and those hero's of today.

Dind't mean to "poke the bear" about "gifted" but...by definition, one cannot be gifted something. We receive gifts. My oldest son shocked me with an early Father's Day 'gift'" A very expensive, to me, Gretsch guitar. The guitar isn't gifted, it's a gift and, unfortunately whatever musical gifts the recipient had have deteriorated from time, chemo therapy and neuropathy in my hands.

15meter, so true!!!