OE powder and paper patching

Is anyone having good success with OE 1 1/2 in their 45-70 PP loads?
I can’t seem to get the vertical out of my groups and I’m starting to wonder about the powder. I had good success with grease groove bullets using a good deal of compression. However, I can only get half as much compression using the patched bullet unless I stack wads or deep seat, neither of which my rifle seems to like.
Groups with patched bullets are running 3 MOA or more at 200 yards with vertical fliers.
I’m going to try Swiss 1 1/2 next.
JKR

Are you using a .060 LDPE wad?

How is the fit of the patched slick in the rifling?

What make rifle, what diameter of bullet and what paper, and what are you doing for fouling control.
But to answer your question, I do get good results with 1 1/2, but better with 2 f in the 45-70.

If I read you right, you're trying to shoot the same load as with a GG bullet, and expect it to work right away with a borerider PP bullet? That is most certainly not evident... You just might need more powder, or adapt any of the other variables (bullet diameter, paper thickness,...).

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Originally Posted by martinibelgian

If I read you right, you're trying to shoot the same load as with a GG bullet, and expect it to work right away with a borerider PP bullet? That is most certainly not evident... You just might need more powder, or adapt any of the other variables (bullet diameter, paper thickness,...).

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What he said ! /Ed

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Originally Posted by martinibelgian

If I read you right, you're trying to shoot the same load as with a GG bullet, and expect it to work right away with a borerider PP bullet? That is most certainly not evident... You just might need more powder, or adapt any of the other variables (bullet diameter, paper thickness,...).

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My grease groove load with OE 1 1/2 is 69 grains compressed around 1/4”. No problem there. Accuracy at 200 yds is sub 2 moa.
With PP I started with 80 grains and went as high as 86. Compression is about 1/8” max in order to shallow seat the bullet. I tried multiple wads but the rifle didn’t seem happy.
I’ve ordered Swiss powder so will report results when I test with it.
I’ve been under the instruction of a very successful PP long range competitor, so I think I have bases covered well in regards to bullet fit and other components. However, he has no experience with OE powder, only Swiss.
JKR

Assuming that you're patched bullet fits the bore and you're not using terribly thick paper, and the patched bullet weight is reasonably similar to the grease groove bullet. Add 2 grains -4 grs. of powder, compress to the same depth, put a 1/8 in felt wad or grease cookie on top of the fiber wad, and thumb seat the bullet. NO crimp, just neck tension. Fouling control really becomes important with patched and you can't get lacidaisical with the way you can with grease groove.

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Originally Posted by JKR

My grease groove load with OE 1 1/2 is 69 grains compressed around 1/4”. No problem there. Accuracy at 200 yds is sub 2 moa.
With PP I started with 80 grains and went as high as 86. Compression is about 1/8” max in order to shallow seat the bullet. I tried multiple wads but the rifle didn’t seem happy.
I’ve ordered Swiss powder so will report results when I test with it.
I’ve been under the instruction of a very successful PP long range competitor, so I think I have bases covered well in regards to bullet fit and other components. However, he has no experience with OE powder, only Swiss.
JKR

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It must not be easy getting all that powder into a .45/70 case.

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Originally Posted by GregLaROCHE

It must not be easy getting all that powder into a .45/70 case.

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It is actually. A fire formed Starline case holds about 85 grains when drop tubed. I used a case extension to get a little more in. I actually got the best results at 81 grains though.

Don. I’m trying to develop a long range target load. I haven’t tried felt wads. Wouldn’t that be about the same as using fiber wads under the poly wad that I’m using?
For fouling I’m using bore pigs with water/cutting oil mixed ten to one followed by a dry patch.
JKR

No it's not the same as stacking a lot of wads. Don't worry about shallow seating the bullet. Chamfer the inside of the case mouth, and make sure the inside of the case is clean.
Might want to cut that wiping mix back to 7-1, and use a 2 1/2 inch flannel patch to chase to the bore pig.

LKR, have you tried pistol primers with the OE 1.5Fg powder. I have an exceptionally accurate load in my 38-55 with PP bullets, OE 1.5Fg, and pistol primers.
Keep on hav'n fun!
MikeT

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Originally Posted by MikeT

LKR, have you tried pistol primers with the OE 1.5Fg powder. I have an exceptionally accurate load in my 38-55 with PP bullets, OE 1.5Fg, and pistol primers.
Keep on hav'n fun!
MikeT

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Mike. Unfortunately my primer selection is rather limited right now. I’ve been working with Fed 210’s. Soon as the drought ends I’ll be trying different primers.
Glad to hear of your success with the 38-55 load. I’m patiently waiting for my 38-55 highwall to be returned from the gunsmith. I’ll be working with it in the near future. I may contact you for information if that’s ok.
JKR

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Originally Posted by JKR

It is actually. A fire formed Starline case holds about 85 grains when drop tubed. I used a case extension to get a little more in. I actually got the best results at 81 grains though.

Don. I’m trying to develop a long range target load. I haven’t tried felt wads. Wouldn’t that be about the same as using fiber wads under the poly wad that I’m using?
For fouling I’m using bore pigs with water/cutting oil mixed ten to one followed by a dry patch.
JKR

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What’s a case extension? Sounds interesting.

It’s simply a short cylinder that’s you set on top of the case when you drop your charge and insert the wad. One end is the same ID as the case. The other end is the same OD. You can drop powder a little past your case length, insert the wad, then press it into the case with a dowel, just enough to get the wad started in the case mouth. Then of course, you go to your compression die.
I made one of these by modifying a MEC powder bar insert. This is in no way my idea. I got it from a shooter who’s far more experienced than I.
JKR

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Originally Posted by Don McDowell

Assuming that you're patched bullet fits the bore and you're not using terribly thick paper, and the patched bullet weight is reasonably similar to the grease groove bullet. Add 2 grains -4 grs. of powder, compress to the same depth, put a 1/8 in felt wad or grease cookie on top of the fiber wad, and thumb seat the bullet. NO crimp, just neck tension. Fouling control really becomes important with patched and you can't get lacidaisical with the way you can with grease groove.

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Don,
I tried your suggestion. I punched out some felt wads from some 54 cal. muzzle loader wads. I dropped the charge down to 72 grains and compressed the same as with the grease groove bullet. To my very pleasant surprise, the group shrunk noticeably and the vertical disappeared. I tried again with 77 grains which also produced a good group at 200 yds. There were actually three shots touching. These were both five shot groups. It’s cold and windy here today so I’ll wait for better conditions and shoot some ten shot groups.
To me this confirms that OE needs considerable compression. Twice what I was using previously. At least the lot I’m using does.
Don, in your opinion, what role does the felt wad play? It doesn’t really seal the bore. Is it mainly to take up space?
Thanks!
JKR

OE works with not a lot of compression to mashing the crap out of it.
In my Shiloh 45-70, 75 grs. of 2f in Hornady cases , under a NAPA rubber cork wad, the felt wad, and a .446525 from BACO cast 16-1 and wrapped in SC 55Y. The bullet is seated deep enough in the case so that the rifling leaves a mark on the leading edge of the patch about 1/8 of an inch.
I think the biggest thing the felt wads do is protect the base of the bullet, letting it bump up into the rifling without distorting.
I usually take advantage of the birthday discount from Midway and get the Muzzleloader original dry lubed wads in a big enough quantity to get thru the year. The 44 caliber wads work well in the 44 and 45 caliber rifles, and the 36 caliber wads work well in the 40's.

Don,
It’s looking like you got me out of the woods with my OE loads by using more compression, a felt wad, and deeper seating. Since doing this, my groups at 200 have tightened up nicely. My last two 5 shot groups were both 2 3/4” and 10 shots went 4” with 7 of those in exactly 2”. This may be approaching the limits of what I can do without a telescopic sight.
My load was 80 grains OE 1 1/2 compressed .250” with .060 poly wad. 1/8” felt wad and 530 grain bullet with parchment paper patch. Winchester case and Federal 210 primer.
My rifle seems happy with this but of course I’ll tweek around with it when I can get different primers and paper. Of course I have Swiss powder arriving soon and will be playing with that as well.
JKR

Glad to help. What's the diameter of your bullet before patching?
A couple of things that sometimes helps tighten groups.
A thinner paper like the Seth Cole 55y can make for much tighter groups.
Sometimes putting a little bit of jojoba oil on the exposed patch after the bullet is seated and then wiping it off with a tea towel, can tighten groups up quite a bit, sometimes it doesn't work. But you're not out much if you pick up a 1 oz bottle of the jojoba and give it a whirl on 10 rounds the next time you're loading rounds for a trip to the range. You can always use the left over jojoba oil in a lube mix. a 1 oz bottle will coat well over 500 rounds.

That 45-70 doesn't happen to have any freebore does it? That will kill accuracy with PP unless you use a 2 diameter bullet.