Need pointers casting pure lead conical for cap and ball

Hello, I've got a new model army I've been messing with and aquired a bullet mold from Kaido Ojaama and have been trying to get it to cast properly. I've leemented the mold, cleaned it until I've gotten tired of doing so several times. I'm casting with pure lead and have also tried a bit of tin with a 50:1 ratio to keep the lead from being too hard for these repro cap and ball guns. I've found a rate of flow from my lee 20 lb melting pot the mold likes and I've experimented with slower and faster pour rates. I've experimented with what angle the mold is at when pouring, where on the sprue plate the stream lands and I've found it functions best right in the center of the hole. I've experimented moving the mold around while it solidifies and keeping it still. No real difference. I've tried with lead pot temperature ranges from 700 all the way to 950 and around the 800-950 range seems to perform the best. I've taken a hand lens and inspected all of the vent lines that directly intersect the cavities and have removed burrs. I've found the mold casts the best preheated at around 470 to 500F after which it starts to have some problems. I've tried heating over that and have warped the sprue plate (replaced it twice) and have caused damage to the mold several times. I'm thinking the plate that's on it is warped again which is disheartening since I've been so fearful of heating the mold past 500F to avoid warping. I've experimented with both the tightness of the bolt for the sprue plate hinge as well as the bolt with the sleeve the plate locates on when closed and have only been successful in worstening either the failure to fillout at the bullet base or the flashing. I've seen no change in my success rate. No matter what I've tried to do to this mold to get it to cast correctly, I never get good base fillout. I get either incomplete fillout, or flashing at the bases, never in between. I will get both issues on the same cast and some bullets will have incomplete bases and the rest have flashing. I will get bullets with extremely small bits of flashing that are hard to see even for my young eyes and I consider these "successes" and can move the flashing over with my finger nail to be able to insert the bases of the bullet into the revolver cylinder though sometimes it's still difficult. I'm getting 1 and uncommonly 2 good bullets every 4-6 casts on a 6 cavity mold and I'm estimating that to be a 98ish% rejection rate. I have a couple of other molds from lee, a round ball mold in 451 I've abused but still gives good casts and a .456 conical mold that I've taken care of and have extremely easy success with casting and getting excellent bullets. Is there something I'm doing wrong here or that I'm missing? I've been extremely patient with this mold as it has at least produced some bullets for me to be able to test some things I've been modifying on this pistol but I'm seeing the ends of my wits coming up. I've done hours of googling as well as using the search function on this forum and haven't been able to come up with anything to help me since my problem is so specific yet so vague at the same time: It just don't wanna cast. I'll admit I'm new to casting but I've been taking it really slow and have been learning a lot. Thanks for any help anyone can provide me. If this mold is just scrap, can anyone point me to another bullet mold of higher quality with a similar bullet design being a rebated base and a flat nose?

I've never seen one of his bullets, only heard of them through youtube videos.

It seems to me that you have done most of the things that need to be done to a Lee six cavity to get it to cast decent bullets. From what I've read, pure lead can be a trial to get well filled out boolits with.

I have only cast pure lead as round balls, which went pretty quick but there are no grooves on them.

I would add some more tin, or even cast a few of wheel weights or similar to get an idea if it was the mold or your lead.

Good Luck, as non working mold can be frustrating.

Robert

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Originally Posted by KetchupMan220

Hello, I've got a new model army I've been messing with and aquired a bullet mold from Kaido Ojaama and have been trying to get it to cast properly. I've leemented the mold, cleaned it until I've gotten tired of doing so several times. I'm casting with pure lead and have also tried a bit of tin with a 50:1 ratio to keep the lead from being too hard for these repro cap and ball guns. I've found a rate of flow from my lee 20 lb melting pot the mold likes and I've experimented with slower and faster pour rates. I've experimented with what angle the mold is at when pouring, where on the sprue plate the stream lands and I've found it functions best right in the center of the hole. I've experimented moving the mold around while it solidifies and keeping it still. No real difference. I've tried with lead pot temperature ranges from 700 all the way to 950 and around the 800-950 range seems to perform the best. I've taken a hand lens and inspected all of the vent lines that directly intersect the cavities and have removed burrs. I've found the mold casts the best preheated at around 470 to 500F after which it starts to have some problems. I've tried heating over that and have warped the sprue plate (replaced it twice) and have caused damage to the mold several times. I'm thinking the plate that's on it is warped again which is disheartening since I've been so fearful of heating the mold past 500F to avoid warping. I've experimented with both the tightness of the bolt for the sprue plate hinge as well as the bolt with the sleeve the plate locates on when closed and have only been successful in worstening either the failure to fillout at the bullet base or the flashing. I've seen no change in my success rate. No matter what I've tried to do to this mold to get it to cast correctly, I never get good base fillout. I get either incomplete fillout, or flashing at the bases, never in between. I will get both issues on the same cast and some bullets will have incomplete bases and the rest have flashing. I will get bullets with extremely small bits of flashing that are hard to see even for my young eyes and I consider these "successes" and can move the flashing over with my finger nail to be able to insert the bases of the bullet into the revolver cylinder though sometimes it's still difficult. I'm getting 1 and uncommonly 2 good bullets every 4-6 casts on a 6 cavity mold and I'm estimating that to be a 98ish% rejection rate. I have a couple of other molds from lee, a round ball mold in 451 I've abused but still gives good casts and a .456 conical mold that I've taken care of and have extremely easy success with casting and getting excellent bullets. Is there something I'm doing wrong here or that I'm missing? I've been extremely patient with this mold as it has at least produced some bullets for me to be able to test some things I've been modifying on this pistol but I'm seeing the ends of my wits coming up. I've done hours of googling as well as using the search function on this forum and haven't been able to come up with anything to help me since my problem is so specific yet so vague at the same time: It just don't wanna cast. I'll admit I'm new to casting but I've been taking it really slow and have been learning a lot. Thanks for any help anyone can provide me. If this mold is just scrap, can anyone point me to another bullet mold of higher quality with a similar bullet design being a rebated base and a flat nose?

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Pit a smidge more tin in...at a small fraction more that tin will break up the leads natural tendency to have surface tension/cohesion at casting temps.

Like putting drops of water on a penny ...you can mound up alot of water on a penny and you'll get a big bubble just sitting there, until you put on a small fraction of soap. The soap breaks up the cohesive bond and all the water runs off the penny.

Tin will help that lead flow into details of the mold alot like that. It's other properties will make that a slight bit harder but ultimately you shouldn't need enough tin to make a hard hard bullet...just enough and you'll need to experiment but I'd start there. A bit more and you should see great bullets (and you won't need it so hot it warps your sprue to get there)

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Yeah there isn't much information on them and I was very interested in diving down the rabbit hole of these particular bullets, even if I have to dig some of that depth myself. The grooves come out absolutely amazing when the base fillout is really close to being complete. I do have a pile of random ingots of varying harndnesses I can try. I'm assuming they have greater amounts of tin and other alloys. I don't really have tin to add as I had a known weight of lead with a known proportion of tin I could mix with 10 lbs of pure lead to get 50:1. don't have the exact numbers I have written down handy on me at the moment but I'll give some of the other lead I have a try and see if it is kinder to me. Hadn't thought about doing that, but I'll update on any changes. I'll probably get the ball rolling and order some tin so I can change the proportion of tin to further experiment if the other lead I have gives me any grief.

I’ve been casting alloyed boolits for a few years now and have pretty much got it figured out. A month ago I began casting pure lead for muzzle loaders and found out it’s a whole new ball game.

I would turn your pot temp down for safety-exposure reasons.

As for changing up your alloy if your pot has 15 lbs of pure in it. I would go ahead and drop a bar or two of regular lead alloy in there.

The guns can shoot hardcast lead fine. Its loading the things that's the issue. The first thing to break is the loading lever screw.

I shoot johnston and dow paper cartridges with my pietta 1858, the boolits are between 13-14 bhr. Not even close to pure.lubed with a hot dip in beeswax. Loaded with enough powder so the boolit maybe 1/8 to 3/16 under flush with the cylinder.

I haven't had any issues with the screw breaking yet. And if it does il replace the screw with a thicker one I think. Or one made of a good strength steel as I have a lathe

It wont hurt your throat or barrel to shoot a softer hardcast alloy. So if you want to add tin and antimony to smooth out your casting go for it.

There's probably a reason why hornandy uses swaging to make the pure lead roundballs.
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I take it that you are filling the mold using the bottom pour method. You might try using a ladle.

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Originally Posted by Doughty

I take it that you are filling the mold using the bottom pour method. You might try using a ladle.

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Talk about a slap myself on the forehead moment. I don't know why I didn't think of that. I have molds that absolutely require one way or the other, while most of them will work with either.

I would recommend a real ladle RCBS or Lyman for the trial instead of a glorified spoon like the Lee.

Robert

I have been casting .50 cal Lee REAL for my inline muzzle loader. It is what I believe to be pure lead (never had it analyzed) with no added tin. Dipper casting worked fine, but I did have a fair number of rejects until the mold was good and hot.

Wayne

I've been trying to cast with some 40:1 lead/tin. Didn't really make any difference at all over pure lead. A friend of mine had some 25:1 they let me use to test with and it was definitely a lot easier to cast with and can do so at much lower temperatures. I feel like it did the most to get fillout really close, but it still won't fill out. I even have some bullets that look like they were really close to filling out and having some flashing. Under the flashing however is incomplete fill out. Think something else is going on here like it the mold isn't clean right at the heel edge of the bullet, but i'm a bit skeptical of every single cavity having the same issue. Also borrowed my friends lyman dipper. Experimented with pouring speeds as well as where I pour on the sprue plate. No matter what I did over the course of my 2 hour casting session with the dipper it seemed to just make base fillout worse and sometimes equal to what bottom pour would give me. I think it being worse is just my lack of practice with it. I may try to scrub the mold some more focusing on the base of the bullet cavity.

With the ladle try filling the ladle, turning the mold sideways, applying ladle nose to sprue plate, turn whole assembly upright, slow count to 3, remove ladle. This is pressure pouring with a ladle. I have one mold, my Lyman 457122 that absolutely requires this. It is my only mold that does, but then, they are all different.

The vent lines may need to be cleaned. Pictures of the mold and boolits would help.

Slim

Is this your first 6 cavity mold?
When do you cut the sprue (timing)?
How long do you wait to pour after cutting the sprue?

Not to start a debate on bottom pour pots - good, bad or indifferent - but the suggestion was given to try ladle pouring and I would suggest you try the same thing. I cast in oure lead all the time and have for close to 60 years - have always used a Lyman bottom pour ladle. Keep your pot hot and your mold hot - pull the ladle of lead from the bottom of the pot and pour. RG, plain base conical or hollow base - your mold needs to be hot and so does you lead to get good skirt/bottom fill. I use both steel/iron and aluminum molds - you can tell by your sprue puddle when your mold is getting "too hot" so after pouring a number of pours, let it cool a minute and start in again.

I admire those that can use a bottom pour - I had one once and found it to be a PIA and went right back to my proven and old bottom pour dipper and pot. I hold the mold over the to when I pour and IF there is any issue with bottom skirt pour, I pressure pour by holding the bottom pour ladle spout higher above the sprue hole.

I'll also mention that I don't use a hot plate to pre-heat or to keep a mold hot - never have and never found it necessary. I set the mold on top of the pot as it heats up and when the lead is ready, I start pouring. It might take a couple or pours before the cavities fill, but the mold heats up fast enough (iron/steel/aluminum). Once the mold is hot, it doesn't take much to get a cadence going.

Again - nothing against bottom pours, hot plates or whatever - if it works for you then that's good, but our ancestors cast with a pot and a ladle - often over a wood fire/coals or by setting the pot in a bed of coals of a farm forge, etc. - and as primitive as it may seem to some, it worked.

After the cavity is full, continue pouring the contents of the ladle over it.

Try enlarging the holes in the sprue plate. Makes a better pour.

Try pressure pouring with a bottom pour pot and bear in mind, the higher the lead is above the spout, the more pressure you will have and I don't doubt you will have to pour around 850 degrees with pure lead. When casting for the Army in the early 60's in Germany all we used was lead collected from the 22 rimfire's which were pure at that time as also was every swaged bullet. If you try a full pot, be careful because it can squirt out of the connection between the mold and your spout and land in your lap.