Fun with a Webley Mark IV 38/200 AKA 38 S&W AKA 380 Rimmed

Fun with a Webley Mark IV 38 S&W

I’ve always wanted a Webley. Not sure why, but I’ve always wanted one.

I reckoned I wasn’t getting any younger so I might as well order one up!! I perused Gunbroker for a while and found one that looked to be in good condition (all things considered), made a bid, and walked away to do cool stuff. A couple days later and I got the email that I was high bidder!! Yippee!! What I ended up with is an Israel contract revolver manufactured between 1968-1970 according to this site: http://www.armsresearch.co.uk/The%20...20Archive.html

Attachment 104739

Now the search was on for reloading components. I ended up getting some Lee 9mm Mak dies (work very well for the 38 S&W), new Starline brass, 200 boolits of the 200 gr variety from Matt’s Bullets, 50 factory PPU loaded ammo, and I was off to the races!!

Once I picked up the revolver I completely tore it down using this site: http://leolani.net/relics/webleyIV.html I made it through the disassembly process, cleaned it really well, deburred a lot of spots, and reassembled it. I put grease where it seemed fitting. I didn’t have any parts left over so off to the range I went with the 50 Factory PPU loaded with 148 LRN bullets. I fired off hand from 15-25 yds. I was actually pretty impressed. That large hole in the bullseye is from 7 yrds (six shots) standing. Recoil was minimal and fun factor was high. Below is my PPU target:

Attachment 104740

I fired all my factory ammo so now it was reloading time. Below is my experience reloading the cartridge, some measurements, targets, etc.

Here is a picture of the kit used to put it all together:

Attachment 104741

The LEE 9mm MAK dies worked splendidly. IME, loading small charges is much easier using a dipper. What I do is fill the trickler up, dip from it, and trickle in whatever may be necessary.

Now to targets. All groups are 9 shot groups. All groups are fired at 15 yds from the sitting position. No powder info is listed due to the start charge I used showing max case expansion (.001 over SAAMI).

1.7 gr:

Attachment 104742

2.0 gr

Attachment 104743

2.2 gr

Attachment 104744

2.5 gr

Attachment 104750

Recovered boolits:

Attachment 104751

Summary: I will pick another powder to play with. At the end of the day, accuracy and POA/POI came with more powder (speed?), but unfortunately all cases had expanded to .387 at the case head with all loads. No other high pressure signs were noted. As you can though, this gun with this load combo will put a bunny in the frying pan!!

Looking good! Those Webleys are very cool. Buffalo Bore now makes a true high performance load for them that is within SAAMI specs.

I bought a Webley about 7 years ago and it was buried in my safe unfired. A couple of months ago I got some bullets from Matt and loaded up some ammo. I had some long ago purchased 38 S&W dies (Lyman) and also about 500 W-W cases. I have been using Unique and like 2.4 grains best. These are mild mannered sweet shooting accurate handguns.

Mine was made in 1955 and saw duty with the Singapore Police.

Very nice!!

I need to work on loads a bit. I was able to pull out the magnifying glass and look at primer pockets and there is a pinprick in each one (punctured). I looked at the firing pin and didn't see any obvious burrs. I'm going to do some thinking here as the firing pin hits the primers with authority so I may relieve it a bit.

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Originally Posted by Love Life

Very nice!!

I need to work on loads a bit. I was able to pull out the magnifying glass and look at primer pockets and there is a pinprick in each one (punctured). I looked at the firing pin and didn't see any obvious burrs. I'm going to do some thinking here as the firing pin hits the primers with authority so I may relieve it a bit.

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I have two Webleys and both of them punch holes in the softer small pistol primers. So I switched to small rifle primers and the problem was solved. If you do this you should start at the bottom again in working up loads. I have been shooting the 200 grain Matts Boolits with mine quite successfully. Fun for the younger shooters in the family before they advance to the bigger pistols. My wife enjoys shooting them too.

DonMountain- Thank you for that info!!! I was using Remington SPP (Started using those after getting an action job on a revolver) and will try the CCI SP before I try SR. I hadn't even thought of using SR primers until you mentioned it and I thought I had a major gun or load issue.

Back to the drawing board!!

I have not noticed any primer abnormalities with my Webley using CCI 500 SP primers.

Back in 1968 the Bank I worked for had a brach robbed at gun point. The silent alarm was set off and as the BG's exited the bank the Edmonton Cithy Police rolled up. Shots were exchanged as the robbers fled in their car. 12 rounds hit the back of the window of the getaway car. Allbounced off the slopped rear window. Shortly thereafter the Bank met with the Mayor of Edmonton. The Edmonton City Police at the time were carrying the Webleys purchased or given to the department as a war surplus gun from the Army. They were still shooting surplus ammo issued back in the day. As a eresult of the visit the city bought their Department S&W Model 10's in 38 spl which lasted until the City bought the force .40-cal Glocks.

Had an uncle who served as a Captain, later Colonel of the South Alberta Tank Regiment. He said he carried a Webley for three years.. preferred the 75MM his Sherman had. Better choice under the circumstances. Italy, France and Germany were not the place to visit during the 40's.

I traded my Webley off for a pristine #4 Longbranch. Scoped it does 1" at 100yards using my cast loads Mo Betta!

Take Care

Bob

I've seen scared and confused Iraqis get out of their vehicle after a 20+rd burst from a SAW. Car windshields are tough!!

The SAW has a bit more juice than the S&W. lol

Bob

True. The point of that is that car windshields are tough!! It's best to aim at the intersection of the dashboard and windshield. Mo' betta probability of your bullet not being deflected.

Love Life, thanks for the Webley disassembly website. I have .45 caliber Webley that's been in my gun safe, disassembled, since my Dad passed away in 1987. This site may help me finally reassemble it. I don't know any details on this particular revolver, but it appears to be in very good condition. Bore is nice and bluing is near perfect except on the sharp edges. Tt.

I hope the site helps you get the old warhorse up and running!

Is it still the original .455 or has it been cut for 45 acp?

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Originally Posted by Char-Gar

I have not noticed any primer abnormalities with my Webley using CCI 500 SP primers.

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Ditto.

As soon as I get home from my southern sojourn, I gotta plug my Webley-Enfield's number into that site you gave. Cool info to know.

I have CCI 500 primers and will give them a try. If those don't work then I still have Tula and Winchester primers to try as well. After that I have SR primers. Something will work...I hope.


Hmmm. Mayhaps my powder was fine. I was using Herco and I came to the charge range based of a SWAG when comparing Ken Waters loads to current Lyman 49th loads with the 358430.

Given the high hits, I would speculate that your powder weights were light. Slower bullet = longer barrel time = higher placement due to recoil impulse. I use 3.3 grains of Herco for my S&W M&P and the W-E, but my bullet (NEI #169A) has A LOT of nose outside the case. Deeper seat depth with a differing bullet could crank pressures up--make haste slowly.

I was thinking along the same lines, but the pierced primers kind of threw me off there. This bullet has less body in the case than the 358430 and the 200 gr Markell boolit loaded by Mr. Waters.

Mr. Waters used significantly more Herco than I did. What made me start at the 1.7 gr charge (incredibly dirty with mucho unburned powder in the bore) are the anemic charge weights listed in the Lyman 49th for the 358430.

Once I get this boolit figured out, it will be time to paly with the 358429, but that boolit is undersized for this gun.

There are 38 S&Ws and then their are 38 S&Ws. I have had over the years several Smith M&Ps and one Colt OP in 38/200. These are considerably stronger machines that the top break Webley's. Looking at that small lug and latch arrangement quickly dispels any thought I have to boost the velocity/pressure of the loads.

I agree with you on that Char-Gar. I am just looking to get POA/POI hits.

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Originally Posted by Love Life

I agree with you on that Char-Gar. I am just looking to get POA/POI hits.

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If the velocity and weight of the bullet matches that of the original British load the point of impact relative to the sights should be as intended. That leave the question as what was intended? Many military and police pistols of days gone by were not sighted for a 6 O'clock hold. Shoot a pre-war Smith and Wesson M&P and that will be evident quickly. I don't know how the Brits wanted their sights to hit. But, I seriously doubt if they were concerned about shooting paper bulleye and hitting center. They were concerned about soldiers being able to hit the enemy under stress at short ranges. They might have set the sights for 200 yards, who knows what madness is in the minds of the British military. They did do things different at times.

My Webley shoot high as well with the windage spot on. I just learn to hold low, figuring the pistol was not sighted to suit my needs or how I wanted the point of impact vis-a-vi the sights. need to make the adjustments in how I use the sights.