45/70 loads for the Quigley match

A while back a group at our range was shooting 12" dingers at 200-500 yards and I brought my Sharps as it was looking neglected in the safe. I had shot these before with a scoped AR (too easy) and figured the Sharps would be a challenge as well as entertainment value for the other shooters. I had not fired the Sharps at longer range steel since I last shot BPCR silhouette back in the 90's. I only had hunting loads with the 330 Gould and Lyman 457193 loaded over 29gr and 27gr of 5744 respectively. Both of those loads shoot 2 moa or a bit better but I never shot them past 100 on paper. I shot the 457193 loads and did very well up to 300 yards and hits were easy once I got the sights dialed. At 500 yards it fell apart and hits were few. One of the shooters told me about the Quigley match and after looking it up a friend and myself had decided to attend. The 400 grain boolits are obviously not going to work for the Quigley with targets from 350-805 yards. I have not fired any 500+ boolits in the Sharps since the 90's and those were loaded with BP. The proper grades of BP seem to be unobtainable presently and it looks like I am going to have to use smokeless for my 525 grain loads. Looks like 25-27 grains of 5744 (have a bunch of it) will get me in the 1200-1350fps range. Hope I can find adequate accuracy and low enough SD's so vertical stringing is not problematic. The chrono will tell story on SD's.

Following this -- interested in your results.

Thanks,

Paul

I’d go with BP and the heaviest bullet you have. I load 70 grains of Swiss 1 1/2 with a Hoch 550 grain Creedmoor bullet in my 4 Sharps rifles. Excellent accuracy at all ranges to 1000 yards.

The Quigley Match allows smokeless loadings. The only restriction they have with 5744 (and double-based powders in general) is no wads in the cartridge case between powder and boolit.

For a boolit, you would certainly do better with something in the 500+ gr range, especially on the 600-yd Octagon and 805-yd Buffalo.

For the past few years IIRC, the Levergun Class has been won with 5744. Check the Matthew Quigley Match site for rules and particulars.

Made it to the range a few days ago but unfortunately did not get to test any of the 522gr loads in the Sharps. It had broken a firing pin a while back and the replacements were improperly sized and I got a click instead of a bang. I did shoot a bunch of the 330 Goulds and Lyman 457193 loads through the 1886 Browning. They performed as usual in this rifle, ragged holes at 50 and 1.5-2" at 100. I took it out to 200 on the 12" dingers and got what looked to be a 4-5" group on the steel once the sights were dialed. The 1886 is equipped with a Marbles improved tang sight and a silver blade front. Replacement firing pin has now been fitted to the Sharps, now for the snow/ice to clear up so I can get back to the range.

Properly sized firing pin installed in the Sharps and went to the range yesterday. Tested a number of loads with 5744 and 2400. The 2 showing the most promise were 27gr 5744 and 24gr 2400, delivering right at 2" or a shade over at 100. With my aging eyes and bifocals probably about a good as I can hold. Winds were light at 5-7mph, full value. Vertical on the best groups was about 1.5". Bullets were seated just into the lands with no crimp. These loads were also the heaviest charges tested, some of the lighter loads showed vertical stringing, even at 100, I would guess due to velocity spreads but I did not chrono the loads. I am going to test some more of these loads and also some with slightly heavier charges. Looking at the load data I have a few more grains of each I can go up and stay within the level 2 loads which are safe in the Sharps and 1886 Browning. Groups were noticeably better as the charges went up I suspect due to the pressure getting up where the powder was more efficient. Thank goodness for Limbsaver slip on recoil pads, 75 rounds would not have been doable with just a steel but plate.

I recently tried some 5744 with a Lee 500 grain pointed boolit. 25 grains. Had a good tight group at 50 yds. with the irons. Point of aim was the same as my 405 grain BP load too.

how does that Lee 500 pointed bullet hold up at longer ranges?

Got back to the range and shot some more groups with the 27gr load of 5744 and 24gr of 2400. Light winds and blowing straight down the range. The stars must have aligned or I had just the right amount of coffee as the 27gr loads were grouping right at 1.5" or a touch under. Had 1 group with 4 in an inch with a called flier opening it up to just over 2. 2400 loads were not quite as good as the 5744. Now I need to take it out to the 500 yard line and see how it holds up.

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Originally Posted by Beerd

how does that Lee 500 pointed bullet hold up at longer ranges?

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I'd like to know that too. The BC should be higher but I keep hearing pointed boolits don't do as well as RNs at longer ranges; as the velocity drops the wind has a greater effect.

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Originally Posted by Sgt H

Got back to the range and shot some more groups with the 27gr load of 5744 and 24gr of 2400. Light winds and blowing straight down the range. The stars must have aligned or I had just the right amount of coffee as the 27gr loads were grouping right at 1.5" or a touch under.

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You mentioned 500 and 525 grain boolits, which were you shooting in this case? I'm going down a similar road with my Rolling Block. Quigley is out of the question this year, but maybe next year...

The bullet I am using is the Lyman 457125. They are casting at 523 + or- 1gr out of 20/1. I guess my casting technique needs work as some seem to get + or - .5 gr. They drop at .4585 and I run them through a .459 sizer. I am seating them so the top band is engraved just a bit by the rifling. Just a slight push required to seat the round in the chamber. With the current situation I wonder what the fuel is going to cost for the 3000 mile round trip to the Q towing our travel trailer.

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Originally Posted by Sgt H

The bullet I am using is the Lyman 457125. They are casting at 523 + or- 1gr out of 20/1. I guess my casting technique needs work as some seem to get + or - .5 gr. They drop at .4585 and I run them through a .459 sizer. I am seating them so the top band is engraved just a bit by the rifling. Just a slight push required to seat the round in the chamber. With the current situation I wonder what the fuel is going to cost for the 3000 mile round trip to the Q towing our travel trailer.

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Thanks.
I've been shooting 500 grains over 4198 up to 200 yards but I consider that minimal for long range. Loaded some 5744 and if the wind would ever stop gusting to 25 on weekends I'd be able to get some serious testing done.
Hey, you could paint the trailer, get in costume and sell 'snake oil' along the way, to help finance the trip.

With respect to the spitzer type bullets in the 45/70 or similar rounds that operate in the transonic to subsonic velocity range it is generally accepted they do not do well in this range. It has to do with stability and the bullets center of gravity. The pointed bullets have more weight concentrated to the back of the bullet while a round nose or postel type is more centered and inherently more stable. It is also generally accepted a spitzer shape does not provide much benefit at lower velocities. What occurs is as the bullet enters the transonic range (about 1400fps) the shock wave catches up with the bullet and passes over it moving to in front of the bullet as it goes subsonic. The shockwave passing over the bullet can play havoc with stability. Prime example was when they were trying to achieve supersonic speeds with aircraft, except the problem was in reverse. Caused all kinds of stability problems and lots of crashes before they got it right.

That explains it well enough to suit me.

I have actually witnessed this instability in the transsonic range while in sniper training courtesy of Uncle Sam a long time ago. When using a spotting scope you can see the vortex of disturbed air made by the bullet as it travels down range. When we were shooting at 1000 yards we would observe the instability evident in vortex. This would occur in the last few hundred yards to the target which corresponds with the M118 ammo entering the transsonic range at 700-800 yards. The rounds would not go completely unstable but it was clear they were yawing. It also did not happen with every round. Improvements have been made in bullet design/quality since then and now our snipers have ammo that will remain stable to 1000 yards and farther.

The nearest thing to that I've seen was cast boolits at 200 through a spotting scope: a sort of 'flashing' visual effect. Even at that distance when the muzzle velocity is near 1000fps, there was time to get an eyeball behind the scope to watch the impact. Made it easier for me, as my spotter was too distracted to do his job.

Well it looks like the 27gr of 5744 is going to be the load. Shot it at 200 and obtained 5 shots groups of 2.5-3". Conditions were good, overcast, no glare or mirage, 10mph winds from 4 o'clock. Still going to shoot it on paper at 500 but it was too busy at the range the other day. Hope I shoot a decent score at the Q but that is going to be up to the nut behind the butt and his ability to dope the wind and mirage.