Chrony necessary for 45-70 out to 100 yards?

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Originally Posted by Milky Duck

many a good load has been ruined by a chronograph....if its accurate LEAVE IT ALONE....

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Never found "a good load" that was accurate that didn't also have good ES/SDs across a chronograph. Conversely, I have seen many "a good load" that seemed accurate at 50 yards or even 100 yards that had poor ES/SDs and also poor accuracy at longer ranges.

I have 4 chronographs [a MagnetoSpeed and 3 Oehler's] and have chronographed thousands of loads since '74. The usefulness of the chronograph in load development is well documented. As to whether anyone "needs" a chronograph is simply up to the individual. In my own case I don't "need" a chronograph for load development, I did plenty of that before I got my 1st Oehler. No, I don't need one, I want one......

If I ever need to buy another chrony, it will be a labradar.

For big guns with big brakes, a magnetospeed won't work.

The diffuser type I have will remain as a backup.

I hear you Larry, and thanks all. It comes down to budget and what I'm willing to accept, as always, of course. I also can't get away from the notion that especially with this venerable cartridge, they have been hitting gongs at 600 yards with vernier sights....no pretense to being a good shot, just a hat in the ring that I sometimes think we (I mean "I," especially) tend to acquire all kinds of things hoping to circumvent just getting to know one's rifle with tons of range time.

Granted everything is now scarce as hell and expensive accordingly - can't believe how much lead I used to cast and rounds I used to burn - but I still need to watch my tendency to buy the next thing hoping for the magic bullet, pun intended.

I know my limits - I can't imagine ever taking longer than 100 yards on game with this guide gun. The scope is a fixed 2 x 7, and past 100 yards even with the scope my eyes as is start to become the limiting factor. My sole concern is to take game well at my hunting distances, so that's my starting point.

414 - If by brake, you mean muzzle brakes, this guide gun is ported but no brake. The magazine tube doesn't extend to the end and I think it might be possible to just mount the magneto "normally," bayonet under the barrel. If not, after talking with the company, they confirmed it's not a problem with any lever gun to mount the unit in any direction. So, again I think, it works with the gun.

I'd still like to ask for those who use this type - do you pretty much let go groupings and POI first, getting your velocity/SD etc. data, then shoot without the chrony for the chrony's effect on POI?

Thanks for all the help all. There's a lot to think on.

I did have good data (for me. Let's call it "good enough" working data) with the Competition Electronics diffuser chronograph. Indeed the data was backed up by groupings, which by 39.5 grains IMR 4198 and 425 WFNGC bullet were very tight. Just always waiting for when I blasted the thing apart and after Blahut mentioned his use of the bayonet/barrel-mounted chrony, and I think Larry Gibson it was who gave a somewhat higher nod to the same type, I was intrigued.

Wish I could justify and then afford a Labradar. I think with the shoulder artillery of this cartridge and its mortar-like character, not sure I need something so good (and costly) for taking down game within my limited range.

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Originally Posted by ascast

FWIW - I only used on for long rang stuff, match shooting. Anything inside of 200 yards I cant see much benefit, certainly inside of 100.

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This post above is worth repeating.

I have been reloading since 1968 and have never "needed" one to develop an accurate load. I have plans to use the one I have this coming year to see how much better it makes the process.

But I have done things inefficiently. I shoot a lot of groups and if a load groups it is GTG. I suspect with a chronograph you may gain confidence in a load with fewer groups if the ES and SD are "good".

I cannot offer solid proof but my gut feel and common sense tells me at less than 200 yards worrying about SD and ES for a hunting load is mental masturbation.

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Originally Posted by dverna

This post above is worth repeating.

I have been reloading since 1968 and have never "needed" one to develop an accurate load. I have plans to use the one I have this coming year to see how much better it makes the process.

But I have done things inefficiently. I shoot a lot of groups and if a load groups it is GTG. I suspect with a chronograph you may gain confidence in a load with fewer groups if the ES and SD are "good".

I cannot offer solid proof but my gut feel and common sense tells me at less than 200 yards worrying about SD and ES for a hunting load is mental masturbation.

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Thanks Don. My bent at this point is to just get 'er done on the 100 yard range without the chrony, and call it ready for the field.

One thing I did note this morning, cleaning the rifle - man, I've never had a dirtier bore, with so much obviously unburnt powder. Not sure I really care, but I will be going back to the 4198 and just taking a look - needed hot to do well with the last (425 grain) bullet, but interested to see how this lighter bullet does with lower-end 4198, though my gut tells me it won't do so well and the bulkier and/or faster powder might be the better call.

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Originally Posted by dverna

I cannot offer solid proof but my gut feel and common sense tells me at less than 200 yards worrying about SD and ES for a hunting load is mental masturbation.

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you have no idea how refreshing it is to see that written......
the longer range crowd seem to be "in fashion" these days and the amount of components used to get a rifle shooting right...is more than I will use in 3 years hunting and filling the freezer..then they go and on sell rifle and start on next one LOL...

Chronografts are fun to play with and the data, used properly, can help build confidence in our work but they sure aren't "necessary".

I can't help smiling at the idea of anyone loading for "long range" shooting with a .45-70.

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Originally Posted by 1hole

Chronografts are fun to play with and the data, used properly, can help build confidence in our work but they sure aren't "necessary".

I can't help smiling at the idea of anyone loading for "long range" shooting with a .45-70.

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FYI: there are people who do shoot 45-70s out to six hundred yards in competition and actually shoot groups at that distance that are 1moa. Yes, six inch groups at six hundred yards. I’m not one of them though. I’m one of the guys that has a chronograph but it’s not used for big game hunting loads at 200 yards or less. Once in a while I’ll measure a couple to see how it compares to “book” loads. It’s usually pretty close. I spend more time on just shooting the smallest group with a reasonable amount of time invested.

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Originally Posted by NSB

FYI there are people who do shoot 45-70s out to six hundred yards in competition and actually shoot groups at that distance that are 1moa.

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I now consider myself informed about long range .45-70 shooters.

I still can't help but wonder how many of those 600 yard MOA shooters are moderately experienced reloaders who would come here for basic chrony advice.

Of course there are a lot of truly long range shooters who think 600 yards is just a mid-range distance. I'm not one of them. I consider 600 yards to be the middle of the next zip code and my best .45-70 accuracy would be "minute-of-barn"! :)

I didn't own a chronograph until about a decade ago. Which means I was handloading for two decades without a chronograph and relying on manuals alone - plus shooting targets at actual range to determine trajectories. My longest deer kill and longest varmint kill shots were made long before I owned a chronograph. I do like knowing the data. But for a .45-70, I'd pick the best group at 100 yards, sight in 3" high at 100 yards, then put it on paper at 200 yards to see where it lands and call it good enough.

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Originally Posted by selmerfan

I didn't own a chronograph until about a decade ago. Which means I was handloading for two decades without a chronograph and relying on manuals alone - plus shooting targets at actual range to determine trajectories. My longest deer kill and longest varmint kill shots were made long before I owned a chronograph. I do like knowing the data. But for a .45-70, I'd pick the best group at 100 yards, sight in 3" high at 100 yards, then put it on paper at 200 yards to see where it lands and call it good enough.

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Thanks, Selmer. I did load up 16 in 0.3 increments (16 each powder) including taking it hotter (out to 37.5 grains IMR 4198 and 33.5 grains AA 5744), just to take a look. I do wonder if maybe I've missed a bit by going at 0.5 grain increments, though I know for a case like the 45-70 it's fairly common.

I did also order the Magnetospeed as much to see where errors might lie as anything else, but maybe that was an unnecessary purchase (see above - GAS). We'll see. I do have the sense of history that plenty game has been felled off of BP loads and .... experience. So I take in what you're saying - many thanks.

I used to run a gypsy swing group, years ago. Selmer Guitars?

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Originally Posted by huntinlever

Thanks, Selmer. I did load up 16 in 0.3 increments (16 each powder) including taking it hotter (out to 37.5 grains IMR 4198 and 33.5 grains AA 5744), just to take a look. I do wonder if maybe I've missed a bit by going at 0.5 grain increments, though I know for a case like the 45-70 it's fairly common.

I did also order the Magnetospeed as much to see where errors might lie as anything else, but maybe that was an unnecessary purchase (see above - GAS). We'll see. I do have the sense of history that plenty game has been felled off of BP loads and .... experience. So I take in what you're saying - many thanks.

I used to run a gypsy swing group, years ago. Selmer Guitars?

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Selmer saxophones. :). My undergrad degree is music education with saxophone emphasis. Still teach privately and play as many gigs as I can. I taught in public schools for a short time and then went to seminary. Now in year 13 as a Lutheran pastor. I'd LOVE to have a Magnetospeed. I'm still working with an older Shooting Chrony with the skyscreens. I'll use it until it doesn't work or I put a bullet through it. :)

I know several 600 and 1,000 yard NRA Highpower National Record holders that never owned or used a chronograph. They shoot waterline tests for load development and nothing more. I do find chronographs beneficial but far from necessary. On a personal note I was achieving repeatable 1/4" to 3/8" MOA groups in the mid 70's will one rifle and no chrono. Today I have better optics, bullets, brass, barrels and chrono's yet 1/4" to 3/8" are still the upper end of my groups. If I went to full benchrest techniques I could do better but that's not where my interest lie. What has changed is the ease to get to the level of accuracy that I want. The chrono helps with developing loads quicker and with less shots but it's hardly a necessity.

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Originally Posted by selmerfan

Selmer saxophones. :). My undergrad degree is music education with saxophone emphasis. Still teach privately and play as many gigs as I can. I taught in public schools for a short time and then went to seminary. Now in year 13 as a Lutheran pastor. I'd LOVE to have a Magnetospeed. I'm still working with an older Shooting Chrony with the skyscreens. I'll use it until it doesn't work or I put a bullet through it. :)

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Well that's very cool. Selmer brass, of course. Sorry - pretty storied history with Django Reinhardt and his style.

Thanks for the additional perspective. I ended up cancelling the order - when and if I pick up that .330-.338, I'll rethink it. Until then I don't anticipate going past 150 yards (at the very most) with the guide gun and I like your advice - shoot it at all anticipated distances and know the load.

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Originally Posted by M-Tecs

I know several 600 and 1,000 yard NRA Highpower National Record holders that never owned or used a chronograph. They shoot waterline tests for load development and nothing more. I do find chronographs beneficial but far from necessary. On a personal note I was achieving repeatable 1/4" to 3/8" MOA groups in the mid 70's will one rifle. Today I have better optics, bullets, brass, barrels and chrono's yet 1/4" to 3/8" are still the upper end of my groups. If I went to full benchrest techniques I could do better but that's not where my interest lie. What has changed is the ease to get to the level of accuracy that I want. The chrono helps with developing loads quicker and with less shots but it's hardly a necessity.

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Thanks, too, for your info. Some travel but I do have ranges available, as I've found out, to 300 yards, in 100 yard increments. Plenty to work on.