Famous 'PEEP & GLOBE' at 50 yards Savage MKII is on my bench!

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Originally Posted by tazman

I bought a rim thickness gauge and weighed and measure he dimensions of several lots of ammo I had on hand a year or so ago. Not sure if I ever posted any of it. In any case, with less expensive ammo, weighing and sorting ade some small differences in group size. Enough to b worth it if shooting for score.
With the good match stuff(Eley Match, Eley Tenex, and similar from other brands) measuring was a waste of time. There were no differences I could measure with he equipment at my disposal. Powder scales and micrometers are not sufficiently accurate to tell.
With the lesser batches f ammo, he differences were slight enough that, if the day had a breeze, I didn't know if the out of group shot was ammo, wind, or me.
I finally just used the good stuff and gave up on measuring.

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I agree 100% tazman....we will do far better if we concentrate on improving our equipment and especially so if we work on the ole'Fart running the rifle! :bigsmyl2:
Lately, the last couple of months I've been perfecting my 'POA setup' prior to 'embracing of the rifle', it is a must that I do not pre-load any pressure in any direction on the butt end of the rifle.

I was always wondering about sorting and if it would do any good. Been using Eley semi-benchrest, and for the money it’s not to bad and just can't afford the good stuff. Most of the time I’ll get a 8 SD out of it, it’s gonna be a long wait till springtime. I’ll have to practice my skills and become the machine that does the same thing every time. Some how winter just drags on forever!!!!!

I think I was traumatized by my sorting experience because I was trying to batch out a case of 5000 rounds plus a little extra in the span of a few weeks. Just how much good it did or didn't do would have been very hard to tell because it was all leather-jacket, ISU positional shooting - not nearly big enough samples, and nothing of a "before" test with the randomness left intact.

Considering your nearly "robot rig", you wouldn't need a very big sample. Shooting the extremes within a brick of "pretty good" rounds should tell you if there's something to it.

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Originally Posted by Bigslug

I think I was traumatized by my sorting experience because I was trying to batch out a case of 5000 rounds plus a little extra in the span of a few weeks. Just how much good it did or didn't do would have been very hard to tell because it was all leather-jacket, ISU positional shooting - not nearly big enough samples, and nothing of a "before" test with the randomness left intact.

Considering your nearly "robot rig", you wouldn't need a very big sample. Shooting the extremes within a brick of "pretty good" rounds should tell you if there's something to it.

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I don't get the term 'Robot Rig' ... what exactly is that?

I meant that he's fully benched with a lot more of the human variables under control.

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Originally Posted by Bigslug

I meant that he's fully benched with a lot more of the human variables under control.

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This is what you had me thinking of when you said 'Robot Rig'...:bigsmyl2:...this is something I can't understand. It's almost like, well...."Who has the most amount of money and the best Rig Builder?"

https://i.imgur.com/j1uFLRu.jpg

It's certainly a matter of perspective. . .

The centerfire Benchrest game is about crafting the gun AND ammo for maximum repeatability.

The .22 BR game is about building up the gun and figuring out what's do be done about the ammo which was crafted by somebody else.

ISU 3-position smallbore shooting can involve some impressive gear and ammo, but it's a very physical game that's about more improving the shooter, which is why it's excelled at by a lot of super-fit college age kids with good eyes. The "robot rig" bench rest approach still allows for what my father and I call "gnarled old Benchrest gnomes" to improve themselves through ability to read conditions of weather and gun, despite the fact that the bodily interface now has some real deficiencies.

My own take is that at the point you're shooting the rifle from a bench with no intention to do anything other than shoot that rifle from a bench, any human contact with the rifle at the moment of firing is an unwanted addition of variables that you can't measure or adjust with a torque wrench, thermometer, or set of calipers. If the name of the game is indeed measuring the equipment and collecting firing data, we're FAR off the reservation of position, hold and breathing, so why bring in the "meat problems" that can render those measurements more uncertain?

I merely look at where Harry's going and figure that since he's mostly full-robo already, a set of T&E wheels and trigger actuator are the next logical steps.

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Originally Posted by Harry Tobin

I was always wondering about sorting and if it would do any good. Been using Eley semi-benchrest, and for the money it’s not to bad and just can't afford the good stuff. Most of the time I’ll get a 8 SD out of it, it’s gonna be a long wait till springtime. I’ll have to practice my skills and become the machine that does the same thing every time. Some how winter just drags on forever!!!!!

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If your place has a basement, it is not too difficult to set up an air gun range and practice shooting/bench skills. If that is not practical, set up a bench and dry fire using a scope. Watch the cross hairs as you release the shot. I used to dry fire a lot when I was competing on the university teams over 5 decades ago, but it gets old quick. I was not "well heeled" and ammunition was expensive. It helped me develop trigger/breath control at no cost and at home.

You are right about needing to be like a machine to shoot well consistently. Getting "in the zone" takes a lot of concentration. I doubt a person with ADD can ever shoot really well.

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Originally Posted by Bigslug

It's certainly a matter of perspective. . .

The centerfire Benchrest game is about crafting the gun AND ammo for maximum repeatability.

The .22 BR game is about building up the gun and figuring out what's do be done about the ammo which was crafted by somebody else.

ISU 3-position smallbore shooting can involve some impressive gear and ammo, but it's a very physical game that's about more improving the shooter, which is why it's excelled at by a lot of super-fit college age kids with good eyes. The "robot rig" bench rest approach still allows for what my father and I call "gnarled old Benchrest gnomes" to improve themselves through ability to read conditions of weather and gun, despite the fact that the bodily interface now has some real deficiencies.

My own take is that at the point you're shooting the rifle from a bench with no intention to do anything other than shoot that rifle from a bench, any human contact with the rifle at the moment of firing is an unwanted addition of variables that you can't measure or adjust with a torque wrench, thermometer, or set of calipers. If the name of the game is indeed measuring the equipment and collecting firing data, we're FAR off the reservation of position, hold and breathing, so why bring in the "meat problems" that can render those measurements more uncertain?

I merely look at where Harry's going and figure that since he's mostly full-robo already, a set of T&E wheels and trigger actuator are the next logical steps.

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I like being in control of the rifle, it's the reason I like to excel as best I can given all the variables involved.
Benchrest @ age 72 is my game now and my goal is to shoot an average of .400" or less at 100 yards.
That may sound like a lofty goal but at the same time it is a realistic expectation and when accomplished, it's most rewarding.
I don't care about competition or rubbing elbows with the Pro's in the field...I am my own best competitor.
Given these conditions, we shooters can go a long ways improving our shooting and our equipment whether it be off a bench or propped in a branch of a tree or off a log as we are squatted in the bush...so long as we keep experimenting in the Rabbit'Hole and sharing with others our 'empirical data'.

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Originally Posted by tazman

All this experimentation, demonstrates just how much details matter in precision shooting. Both in equipment and technique.
Also, just how much different conditions matter in day to day shooting.
I noticed that temperature changes during the shooting session seemed to have a larger effect on my group size than I would have believed. It is hard to say just how much expansion and contraction changed things. Then you also have the added heat from the round count(barrel warming) to consider.

Your results are very encouraging. Particularly, since I purchased a fairly large quantity of the Eley Club ammo a little while ago.
For me, finding a day with little wind and minimal temperature change over a shooting session is hard to do. Where I live, we have 20-30 degree temperature swings from morning to afternoon.
Wind is always a factor. I just can't seem to get my head wrapped around the changes yet. Still working on it.

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When I was in a M110 canon battalion in Santa Barbara, California, we did all our firing at Camp Roberts. One of the parameters for setting up a fire mission is propellant temperature. Due to the moderate climate, prop temp was never a real consideration. Then we went to Minnesota for winter training. The first rounds downrange fell into the buffer zone, almost out of the impact area. A quick investigation revealed that prop temp was the culprit.

Wayne

I know that snipers and target shooters using centerfire rifles have an equation they use when temps change. I don't have any idea what it is though.
I do know things shoot slower and low when the ammo is cold and the opposite when things are warmer. I don't have the experience to know how much.
Certainly, the same thing would apply to artillery.

Harry and I were talking about 'FTF's' (failure to fire) & poor ignition the last couple of weeks.

I've been getting these often in a 1 year old lot of Eley Match since the weather turned colder...don't know if that makes the critical difference with ignition or not?
But, anyway...Harry tells me about a spring for the CZ452 that's 10% stronger and he gives me a link.
I got those springs in & changed the striker spring a few days ago.

I've shot one session since the change...there were no FTF's & no magical improvements in my 100 yard group averages...but...I think I do see a difference, a slight difference in the strike on the case.
Three cases are taken from before the spring change & three cases from after...can any of you tell which cases are which? they are not mixed up, they are grouped in 3's.

https://i.imgur.com/3xPPl8V.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/0gvI16j.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/IBYFodK.jpg

The spring is an obvious observation, the new spring is a tad-bit (?1/8") longer...

I think that every little subtle improvement will shave off a couple or more thousandths in our average group size? Me hopes...:bigsmyl2:

That looks like quite a big difference to me, awhile back I lost the spring MKII. I hate when a spring goes flying and hours and days later and never found. So I contacted Savage for springs they were nice enough, but would not sell me the spring directly to me. It had to be sent to my FFL, thought that was a bunch of crap for a spring. But the girl at Savage did good and sent 2 of them free to the FFL. No charge to me. Not 100% sure but I think with better hits primer ignition may give you better results with SD's. My 2 cents

I remember someone mentioning firing pin strikes in another thread. He included a suggestion on how to shape the firing pin to give most consistent ignition. He claimed it improved the SD and somewhat helped the group size. Unfortunately, I don't remember which thread or who posted it.

Looking at those pin strikes, I have to wonder if the outside edge of the firing pin is hitting/rubbing the chamber wall slightly at impact. If so, that would throw another problem into the mix.

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Originally Posted by tazman

I remember someone mentioning firing pin strikes in another thread. He included a suggestion on how to shape the firing pin to give most consistent ignition. He claimed it improved the SD and somewhat helped the group size. Unfortunately, I don't remember which thread or who posted it.

Looking at those pin strikes, I have to wonder if the outside edge of the firing pin is hitting/rubbing the chamber wall slightly at impact. If so, that would throw another problem into the mix.

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The way the striker rides inside the bolt, it's like a piston and the rear 2 tabs keep it clocked...it comes out of the bolt face perfectly centered in the hole.

https://i.imgur.com/XiXQ0js.jpg