Printable View
From everything I've read these are really hot - cratering primers, etc.
Not one to bypass free ammunition, I have come in possession of about 7200 rounds.
What's the conventional wisdom here. They're corrosive primers.
I could pull the bullets and
(1) reload powder with a safe powder leaving the corrosive primers i, reusing the same bullets
(2) Deprime, reprime and reload
(3) Pull the bullets and discard everything else.
(4) Shoot as is and keep fingers crossed.
What think you?
I have no experience with such ammo. So take this for what its worth.
I'd do option 3. Keep bullets and brass and get rid of corrosive primers.
I'd be tempted to try and save powder but who knows what it is. Cause with 7000grs in a pound say 70grs per cartridge, every hundred rounds would be a pound of powder??? Is that right?? So youre talking 70 pounds of powder?? I dont know if my math is right anyway a lot of powder to throw out would be nice to reuse.
Just my thoughts.
I still have quite a bit of this ammo myself, purchased when a case of it was about $39.95.
A friend and I bought several cases, and not wishing to use the corrosive primers we purchased 500 new R-P cases, pulled the bullets, dumped (salvaged) the powder into containers and trashed most of the original cases with the corrosive primers. This last action was a mistake--more later.
The bullets were surprisingly easy to pull. We started off using the textbook in-the-press bullet pullers, but soon found it much easier and faster to grasp a loaded round in one hand, apply a pair of non-marring parallel jaw pliers to the bullet, bend it a bit to one side and then the other, and they came right out without any deformation at all. The mouths of the cases were deformed a bit, but nothing that couldn't easily be remedied with a careful squeeze of the same pliers and running them into a resizing die. We didn't follow the resizing past seeing if it could be done, as we didn't intend to reuse the cases.
We carefully weighed many of the original charges when we discovered that they appeared inconsistent, and found them to vary from about a low of 41 gr. to 53 gr. We loaded the new cases using 46.0 gr. of the salvaged Turkish powder and reused the original 155 gr. FMJ bullets and CCI Large Rifle primers. I honestly can't exactly remember how we settled on 46.0 gr., but I think it was the average between the high and low charges, and a number of them originally had that charge. The resulting ammunition shot very satisfactorily in our M-38 Turk rifles. I said that discarding the original brass was a mistake, as it later occurred to me that as the years have passed 8x57mm military ammo has largely disappeared, and having also experienced several reloading component shortages even this brass could be of value, loaded again and used at least once, and the rifles carefully cleaned thereafter. As it was, hundreds of cases went into our local club's brass collection barrel. I did a second run of these a few years later, shined up and saved the primed cases for a rainy day.
Frankly, although the Turk product was loaded with widely varying charges of their powder, I've never myself heard of a disaster resulting from shooting it. It is hard, though, to imagine the range accuracy we all seek using ammunition with charges that vary so much, and I would recommend that you break the loads down and reuse the bullets and powder.
DG
I purchased some 1955 turk 8mm dirt cheap but realizing it was corrosive primed, I pulled it down and weighed each charge of powder as I removed it from the case. I found it to be some of the most consistant military powder charges I have ever weighed and I have weighed many, many military powder charges. I kept the powder, bullets, and sold the brass cases(berdan primed) to a fellow shooter in NY who had berdan primers and wanted my brass. I then formed some 8x57 cases from 30-06 military brass and primed them with Winchester LR primers. I hand weighed each charge as I loaded them but I did cut the powder charge by 1/2 grain to make sure I didn't run out of the turk powder. Made some great shooting loads in my Turk mauser. my experience, james
At a minimum I'd pull the bullets, dump the powder out and reduce the charge weight a bit, then reload with the same powder but at a consistent charge weight. Second option - dump powder and load with a current modern powder to a consistent charge weight. The corrosive primers aren't an issue - just clean well after shooting. Test a few to determine if the primers are causing any duds or hang fires - if so pull the bullets as components only and save yourself the whole hang fire headaches.
I do not know about the turk ammo, I have in the past gotten some 30/06 from ww1, it still shot, the brass was brittle and split the necks. Shoot some and see ??
Turk ammo is not HOT. It is loaded to original German specifications. When this ammo came up for surplus sale 20 years ago, all sorts or stories started to be posted about how hot the ammo is.
I myself and the shooting club I run shoot thousands of 8x57 Mauser rounds a year as we only shoot surplus military firearms long range. Countless cases of Turk ammo has been fired with no problems what so ever in all sorts of rifles and carbines. No pressure signs or "stiff bolts". And the ammo is very accurate at 800 yards.
Compared to "lawyer load" American ammo, it does appear to be hot.
I have quite a bit of that ammo, I pulled bullets dropped load 15% and reseated the bullets, they shoot great. I used a RCBS collet die with a 8mm insert to pull the bullets. The brass tends to be pretty brittle and many ( 1 in 5 sh or so) the case necks cracked when pulling so I load those in new brass with the pull down powder.
I really should chronograph them, at 10% (which will be about 5 grains) they still seemed a little warm, at 15% (8 grains) they seem about right.
Tom
I had a 2 pallets 63 wooden cases each of Turk 8mm latest headstamp was 1939. Shot a full pallet with a 1919 Browning and most of the rest in various bolt actions. Other than many cracked necks all shot. I still have 2 50 cal cans full of the cracked necked ones left.
1949 is way newer by a decade they should shoot fine. Very corrosive and the 1939 ones had a different jacket material than today's ones. Needed removal with sweets every time they were shot.
Pull the bullets and save the powder.
Reload with 45 grains.
It is ‘hot’ ammo - there are different 8x57 reloading specifications - this version is one of the hotter ones.
Save the cases, never know what….
Geoff in Oregon
For 7000 rounds, I'd pick up a couple of turk Mausers, and go steel banging with a buddy or two. That is enough ammo to provide a ton of fun and definitely improve your off-hand shooting skills. As far as corrosion goes, -- clean your rifles. jd
I've had a lot of Turk 8mm ammo over the years. Some is better than others. I have a bunch of 1949 dated ammo right now that shoots great. Well, not the most accurate, but it all fires reliably- no misfires, no hangfires, no cracked cases, no signs of high pressure.
I had a case of 1947 a while back that had brittle necks. I ended up pulling them all down for bullets and powder. There's a website online (forget where), someone tested and chronographed a number of different lots and years. Some of them were indeed "hot", cracked cases and signs of high pressure. Ian from Forgotten Weapons tested some 1941 and gave it a two-thumbs-down, said it was so hot that it cracked the stock on his WWII Mauser (I have to wonder if it didn't have a crack started just waiting to get worse).
Anyhow, the 1949 ammo I have now has copper jacketed bullets, annealed brass, and clocks right around 2850 fps out of a long-barrel Turk Mauser, just about right for a 154gr load out of a long barrel. Ian reported about a hundred fps faster out of a shorter barrel, so I can understand his apprehension. There was a guy on another forum who reported 3200fps with whatever year ammo he had, WAY too hot in my opinion.
Anyhow, if your 1949 ammo is the same as what I have, it would be a shame to pull it down, unless you just really hate corrosive primers.
I also have shot a lot of the Turk milsurp 8x57 ammunition. I also have pressure tested numerous different lot/years from '39 to '51. As mentioned, the Turk ammo is loaded to German specifications and is not "hot". The measured psi's ran from the mid 50Ks up to 60K. Velocities all run in the mid to high 2800 fps out of my VZ 24/47 with 23" barrel.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shanghai Jack
Some lots can give sticky bolt lift/extraction but that is because the brass was never properly annealed and has become brittle giving little "spring back". Pulling the bullet and reloading the powder and bullet in Winchester cases/primers results in easy extraction with the same psi and velocity measurements.
As mentioned, I've shot a lot of the Turk ammo "as is" [still have 2 cases+ to use] but I also have pulled down the powder and bullets and reduced the load 5 or 10% [every lot I have tested had 48 gr +/- of the Nobel type squarish cut flake powder]. I lost about 15% of the cases do to split necks. With some lots some necks will crack on pulling the bullets and some on NSing. I removed the decap pin from a NS die and Neck sized the cases for loading. That made for a very comfortable shooting load and was just as accurate as the full load. A 5% reduction resulted in the psi dropping to 50K +/- and the velocity to around 2720 fps.
I've not found keeping the bore clean when using the corrosive primed ammo to be a problem. I clean initially with Hoppe's #9 using a bronze brush and several patches. Then a patch [I use 2" square flannel patches] wrapped around a worn 30 cal brush with some JB's bore paste on it is run back and forth through the bore to remove any jacket fouling, particularly the cupro-nickel fouling, that can hide some of the corrosive mix under it. Then another quick cleaning with Hoppe's and dry patches with a wet patch of Kroil to finish the job. Sounds more difficult than it is. Haven't gotten any corrosion in any bore yet.
I also have pulled the bullets and powder down in a couple cases and reloaded both into Winchester cases using the original 48 gr load. BTW, the squarish cut Nobel flake powder has a burn rate between 3031 and H4895. And I've used the Nobel powder with other commercial jacketed bullets with excellent accuracy.
Now, having all those Turk primed cases [ones that the necks didn't split] I just couldn't forgive myself if I threw them away..... A few years back there was a GB for a Lee 6 cavity 190 gr 8mm mould so I got one. I also have a couple regular Lyman 8mm moulds but the 6 cavity casts excellent bullets and a lot of them very quickly. I cast them mostly of COWWs or range lead +2 % tin, GC them with Hornady's or my own home made GCs, size at .325 and lube with 2500+ [Javelina in times past]. I NS and M-die the Turk cases. Again some necks will split when NS'd/M -die'd and are easily felt when they split and those are discarded. Last time I pulled downd a case of the Turk I ended up with over 900 cases good to load. I put either 29 gr of H4895 or 29 gr of the Nobel pull down powder with a dacron filler then seat the 190 gr cast bullets. Velocity runs 1800 fps +/- and accuracy is excellent. On my walk abouts in the desert shooting commie rocks I fill one pouch of a Claymore bag with the loaded rounds and as i shoot them I put the empties in the other pouch. If I lose a case or two it's no loss as I'll discard the fired cases anyway. Cleaning the bore is straight forward as the lube seems to keep the corrosive salts well contained so a normal cleaning and wet patch of Kroil is all that's needed.
Anyways, that's what I've been doing with lots of the Turk ammo and some Columbian 8mm also. Suggest you "(4) Shoot as is and keep fingers crossed.. If that works out then you're good to go. Just keep the bore clean is all. If it doesn't then you've got some other options.
Thanks all. I have a small quantity of Turk 8x57 and I will pull and save the bullets and either buy some new cases or rework some new commercial 30-06 brass to 8x57. If I use cast bullets and take care of the cases they should last a long time.
It is clear that some lots of turk ammo for what ever reason can exhibit high pressure indications. 98 mauser rifles are quite strong and so high pressures as long the case head stay intact and chamber is dry will not be hurting the shooter, but still not a safe practice. Definitely not good for the rifle.
I have encountered two types of Turk 8mm over the years. Light ball and heavy ball. The light stuff works pretty good in long barreled bolt action 98's like the model 38 and 98/22 Turkey used. I believe Turkey used the heavy ball in those Maxim machine guns and short rifles. Those Cupro nickel bullets are some real whistlers and need a very good backstop.
I always love your posts, Larry- detailed and informative. You make me feel confident in shooting what I have.Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Gibson
So many other places online the knee-jerk reaction is "AAAH, Turkish 8mm ammo! Don't shoot it, it will blow up and kill you! You'll shoot your eye out kid!"
I was also one of the guys that bought armloads of Turkish Mausers and the cases of cheap ammo. Then I shot and shot the darned stuff but couldn't shoot it all. After about 10 years I auctioned the remainder and got more $$ than I paid for the rifles and the ammo. I did pull bullets and salvage powder and reload in boxer cases when shooting the salvaged items in "better" 8x57 rifles. Here are the results of some of my playtime with the Turk ammo:
Turkish 8x57 ammo fired in my stock 1938 Turk produced some interesting data for you fellow Turk shooters. The ammo came in the 70 rnd. bandoleers with 154 gr. bullets and 47.5 gr. of flake powder.
I pulled bullets and reloaded the cases with 35, 37, 39, 41, 43, and 45 gr. of the flake powder. I fired 5 rounds of each, as well as 5 rounds of full-power loads (47.5 gr.) and chronographed them. I shot from the bench at targets 50 yards away on a cold (32) and windy day (today) at targets with 1 inch bulls using a 6 o’clock hold.
Here are the velocities (rounded to nearest 10’) and the size and locations of the groups in relation to the bull (all using the same hold).
Powder charge Velocity Group size Location
47.5 2980 1.0” 3.5” low center
45 2770 1.75” 1.0” low .5” left
43 2700 1.75” .5” high 1.0” left
41 2610 1.50” 1.5” high 2.0” left
39 2510 1.50” 3.0” high 1.5” left
37 2410 2.00” 4.5” high 2.5” left
35 2300 .75” 5.5” high 4.7” left
I’ll repeat this on a warmer and nicer day, assuming we ever get one. Meanwhile, sure was interesting to see where the groups went and why.
I am not sure why everyone makes a big deal about corrosive primers. Just clean the rifle properly when you're done shooting.
Sent from my SM-S918U using Tapatalk