Bevel base cast bullets

I know a lot of guys use Bevel base commercial bullets. Some years back I did. And could not find a suitable load for them. With out leading. I now cast all my own bullets. As most know different Alloys need to be pushed at different speeds. To have proper Bullet Obturation. Now for my question, Being a commercially cast Bullet .they are some what hard. Logic would dictate a harder bullet should be pushed harder. How ever. Being Bevel Based Bullet. Do not obturate to seal the bore .As well as plain Base. The result is gas cutting around the bullets base with hotter loads. My guess would be these Bullets should only be loaded in mid range cast bullet loads only. Am I missing the point some where.

Something to keep in mind about commercial bullets. "Appearance", when a customer first opens the box is a major consideration concerning any alloy or lube a commercial company uses.

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Originally Posted by hornady

I know a lot of guys use Bevel base commercial bullets. Some years back I did. And could not find a suitable load for them. With out leading. I now cast all my own bullets. As most know different Alloys need to be pushed at different speeds. To have proper Bullet Obturation. Now for my question, Being a commercially cast Bullet .they are some what hard. Logic would dictate a harder bullet should be pushed harder. How ever. Being Bevel Based Bullet. Do not obturate to seal the bore .As well as plain Base. The result is gas cutting around the bullets base with hotter loads. My guess would be these Bullets should only be loaded in mid range cast bullet loads only. Am I missing the point some where.

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Boolit fit at the start is what is important, never depend on boolit expansion to obturate the bore. A BB can shoot OK but it MUST be the right size and length. I have never had much accuracy with them and prefer a flat base.
All of my experiments indicate that a harder boolit is needed as the powder gets faster burning---BUT IT MUST FIT THE GUN.
Some alloys from store bought boolits can cause leading too. Seems like grain structure can SLIP or something.
Anyway, if the boolit is right, the BB will not promote gas leakage. A boolit that skids the rifling or is too small will.
The biggest problem I see is boolits for the .357 are .357" and .44 boolits are .429", etc.
To make an under size boolit soft so it seals will just ruin your accuracy. If your powder needs to move lead sideways, something is wrong.

It would be nice if more mold makers would eliminate the bevel base. I'm giving yet another LEE mold to a friend for machining off of the bevel base.

Shiloh

For my cowboy action shooting, I like bevel base boolits. I used to shoot a lot (40,000/year) and the BB are a little quicker/easier to reload on my progressive press.

The commercial cast boolits that I used did not lead my revolvers or lever guns, but they where sized 358 and the caster was also a shooter! The accuracy with those boolits is more than adequate (3" @ 50yds from my vaqueros from a supported position and 2" @ 50yds from my rifles).

As was said earlier, the fit and alloy seem to be the most important. My revolvers also had the cylinders honed to just allow .358 to pass with light finger pressure.

AJ

Early BB bullets where sold in generic standard diameters. And this was a problem. However. Several bullet Manufacturers will now size the bullet to a specific Diameter. The bullets I mentioned where.358 and I admit at that time I had not slugged the barrel. But with the proper Diameter bullet, With a General BHN of say 18. The easy of loading BB would be out weighed by inaccuracy and leading potential. All the Bullets I now cast are from plain base Lyman molds. The reason for this line of Questions One of the other sites I go to. The advantages of BB compared to PB, is on going. I personally just can’t see the advantage to the BB bullet. Other than easy of manufacturing.

the concenses seems to be that bevel base bullets aren't as acurate.
the j bullets all have a rounded bases and that is kindof bevel base.
don't get me wrong, i'm not argueing, just curious. could it be that
the base does not cast perfect around the bevel??? flat or bevel,
it has to be perfect if u want accuracy, just as the barrel crown has to be perfect.
inquireing minds want to know why.
cheers
jb

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Originally Posted by jbunny

the concenses seems to be that bevel base bullets aren't as acurate.
the j bullets all have a rounded bases and that is kindof bevel base.
don't get me wrong, i'm not argueing, just curious. could it be that
the base does not cast perfect around the bevel??? flat or bevel,
it has to be perfect if u want accuracy, just as the barrel crown has to be perfect.
inquireing minds want to know why.
cheers
jb

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Jacketed is different and the slight roundness is controlled. Cast must have a perfect base because if your casting technique is off, none will be the same and some will be rounded on one side only and the next boolit will be perfect.
One reason the BB can be bad is that for a given weight, the length of the drive area is reduced. I have never proved that the BB itself is bad. The same thing can happen if you shoot certain boolits, leaving the gas check off. Some will shoot, others will not.

I have two wadcutters that I shoot alot. 358091 which is 150 gr BB, and 358089 which is 140 gr pb. I cannot tell any difference in propensity to lead, skid, slew, or smell bad. The BB is slightly easier to load, but b/c I flare my case mouths, that really doesn't matter either.

358091 is the only BB mould I have, and it works fine for me. I use it HP'd in pure lead for my .38 defensive load. I use it HP'd in 25%WW/75%pure in my .357 carry load. I shoot lots in my snubbies using WWs for practice, and drive to about 1300 in the .357. I chose the 358091 over the 358089 just for the little bit of extra boolit weight, not anything to do with the base.

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Originally Posted by hornady

I know a lot of guys use Bevel base commercial bullets. Some years back I did. And could not find a suitable load for them. With out leading. I now cast all my own bullets. As most know different Alloys need to be pushed at different speeds. To have proper Bullet Obturation. Now for my question, Being a commercially cast Bullet .they are some what hard. Logic would dictate a harder bullet should be pushed harder. How ever. Being Bevel Based Bullet. Do not obturate to seal the bore .As well as plain Base. The result is gas cutting around the bullets base with hotter loads. My guess would be these Bullets should only be loaded in mid range cast bullet loads only. Am I missing the point some where.

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As 44man pointed out, depending on obturation to fit a boolit to a gun is an iffy thing. Better to have a boolit that fits to start with. I'm not sure where the idea that obturation is something achieve came from, but I'm against the idea. A BB boolit will obturate too, it just acts a little differently.

As to the rest of your post, let me modify it a bit. "Logic would dictate a harder bullet CAN be pushed harder if it fits right to start with." If it fits and you aren't depending on obturation to fit the boolit in the first place it should work from low speed to the limit the alloy will grip the rifling.

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Originally Posted by 44man

Jacketed is different and the slight roundness is controlled. Cast must have a perfect base because if your casting technique is off, none will be the same and some will be rounded on one side only and the next boolit will be perfect.
One reason the BB can be bad is that for a given weight, the length of the drive area is reduced. I have never proved that the BB itself is bad. The same thing can happen if you shoot certain boolits, leaving the gas check off. Some will shoot, others will not.

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Ditto. Jacket and cast are apples and lobster. You shoot both, but that's where the similarity ends.

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Boolit fit at the start is what is important

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To kind of ride on this I have a Lee mould I use for a 1894C 357 mag rifle that is a 158 grain SWC BB. It drops a .360 bullet using just WW and 2% tin so I load and shoot it as dropped from the mould. BHN averages 11-12 when tested. Lubed with nothing more than LLA, my present load is clocking just a little over 1500 fps from the rifle and I'm getting no leading what so ever with very good accuracy.

I have gotten pretty good accuracy from BB commercial bullets. The big battle with them for me was to keep the darn things from leading the barrel terribly. Most of that I find is due to the sorry lube that is on most of them.
I do believe my cast are a little more accurate, and I have only used the commercial bullets in .45 ACP.:Fire:

I have the Magma 44-240-SWC-BB mold.
Used to purchase that bullet from at least two different manufacturers. Both used hard lube which from what I gather over on the lube section doesn't even have any oil in it. Leaded my revolver bore to where I couldn't even see rifling after a couple hundred shots. My bullets cast from 2/6 alloy and lubed with Felix, Lars CR or some other concoctions I've cooked up like hardened 50/50 have not leaded the bore. Same with my 9mm bullets.

While the BB helps nothing as far as I can see I do not think it's the nemesis some point to. Many shooter have been sold on them through advertising along with “hard cast”. I have friends I work with that insist on BB bullets. Which is the only reason I have them. I tell them to place a Lyman M die in their Dillon 650 press but it falls on deaf ears. I'm assuming that would work in a 650 with all those die stations.

I agree a lot of commercial bullets problems come from a poor lube, But just the nature of the BB bullet are you not leaving your self open to, gas cutting around the bullets base with hotter loads.

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Originally Posted by hornady

I agree a lot of commercial bullets problems come from a poor lube, But just the nature of the BB bullet are you not leaving your self open to, gas cutting around the bullets base with hotter loads.

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I don't understand how a BB can lead to gas cutting on a good fitting boolit any more than a BoatTail leads to gas cutting of an appropriately sized J-word. If the projectile fits, there will be NO gas flow past the base of the projectile, whether it's a BB, BT or PB. On the other hand, if the projectile does not fit, it doesn't matter what the base shape is. Think of it this way. If your bathtub drain is plugged, does it really matter what the shape of the top of the plug is? If it's not plugged, it doesn't matter what the shape is, the water is going to flow past.

I've had excellent accuracy with correctly fit BB boolits and I've had horrible accuracy and leading with PB. I don't blame the horrible accuracy and leading on the plain base boolits, they didn't fit, they weren't lubed correctly and they where too hard for my needs.

AJ

Not quite sure where some of you are going on this bevel base bullet Thread. Not to start a fire here but makes me wonder what you expect out of cast bullets.

My somewhat mentor for my BR shooting has been handicapped after a stroke since 1989. He has little or no feeling in his hands. Being a very active BR shooter and still the WR holder for group in one class he has never given up shooting. We met back in 93 and I have been casting and loading 38 for him since.

He was a Master class 45 shooter what ever that means in years past. I have watched him with my cast shoot 20 shots inside a pie plate fom 25 ft regularly with my cast most shots towards the middle. He shoots my cast way more than I do as I am shooting BR rifle on the others side of the Range. We both shoot at Inland Gun Club recently closed. I'm back at Angeles Range he's sitting home knarly as hell playing with his wife of 54 years, she doesn't look a day over 45 even though she turned 71, Jerry is 79. I'll get Jerry up to Lytle Creek so he can snocker their pistol Range some.

Point is guys Jerry shoots what I cast and no complaints I load for him on my Star loader and I have the 45 head for future time spending.

So you bevel base detractors cast and load all your 38/357 molds as I do and shoot them, I have 9-10 38 molds. Odds are the bevel base 358 91 will hold it's own against whatever else you got. Hate to say this but I cast my first 38 bullet back in 1962, 358495 and they shot well my old man knew the game. Just a side note I bought at buddie price an Ideal 4 cavity 358 87 mold about 10 years back and have cast a zillion bullets using it. Jerry says it is my best cast bullet in 38. Try and find this number if you can it will not disappoint.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR

Can we agree on one thing, whether BB or PB? The verb "obturate" is being misused here. Obturation means BLOCKAGE or RESTRICTION, and we should use it to describe what occurs between the boolit and the bore when a good seal is made.

Obturation does NOT occur to a boolit, i.e. a boolit does not obturate to fit the bore. Obturation occurs if and when an undersized boolit expands to fit the bore with a near ideal seal with no gas leaks.

If you want to refer to what happens to the BOOLIT during obturation, well, the proper verb would be EXPAND or ENLARGE.

Rant off.

I have had good luck with bb and pb both, but at the range I shoot most pistol stuff rocks or round balls would probably shoot just as well. Many folks here say that you can't really dope out a revolver load until well past 50 yards, and my experience supports that. A boolit design can fall apart even at 40 or 50 yards when it makes one hole groups at 15. I have one boolit that loves to drive tacks at 25 but keyholes at 80. I got an identical mould and cut the bevel base out to make a pb boolit, problem solved in that particular revolver.

It just depends. As Bret said, fit is everything. I'll add that careful reloading and case prep and a good lube make everything else. Alloy and hardness matters a lot less than peopl think at lower to middle velocities.

Gear


.

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A BB boolit will obturate too, it just acts a little differently.

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Someone did a trial with BB's and found that the base distorts under firing. This fellow did get them to shoot straight by enclosing the bevelled base in a wax cup. He demonstrated that this protected the otherwise unsupported bevel from distorting and accuracy was 'normal'. He showed pictures of the recovered boolits and it was plain to see.

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Originally Posted by Shiloh

It would be nice if more mold makers would eliminate the bevel base. I'm giving yet another LEE mold to a friend for machining off of the bevel base.

Shiloh

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I agree, especially since I switched to 'M' die expanders it is of little value.

What lured you guys to BB bullets in the first place. I have 2 bevel base molds one 358 91 and the other 358 063 both doubles. Both make excellent cast bullets as fine as any of my cast 358 495. I don't know what cast encyclopedia you read from but target proof is all that one needs.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR :brokenima

For some reason the commercial casters all want to sell BB boolits. I think it may be that progeassive loaders can use them easier.
Problem is that is so pervasive that you have a hard time getting a flat base bullet mold in the shape that you want. Also BB bullets are hard to lube without getting lube around the base. I set a gas check in mt lyman lub-sizer and it stops the lube from flowing under the bullet.

Commercial lub-sizers are air operated and apply pressure only when the bullet is in position. hand sizers hold constant pressure.

As far as accuracy, I cannot find a difference. I even shot some gas CK bullets without the cheak and used Tumble lube. They still worked great.

my typing leaves much to be desired.

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Originally Posted by stephen perry

What lured you guys to BB bullets in the first place. I have 2 bevel base molds one 358 91 and the other 358 063 both doubles. Both make excellent cast bullets as fine as any of my cast 358 495. I don't know what cast encyclopedia you read from but target proof is all that one needs.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR :brokenima

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Yes, go buy a mess of ultra hard, undersized BB boolits and put them in the target. Then you'll know why many of us view BB designs with distrust. Home cast is a different ballgame and I have a couple BB that do right well. I just don't LIKE them as well as FB.

As for the BB itself I've noted any times that there's no reason they shouldn't shoot as well as FB, but it depends on what the particular gun wants, just as in every other case. I don't believe the BB is MORE accurate than a FB, but with a concentric BB ( the main issue IMO) it should shoot just as well as a proven FB at pistol speeds.

I recently bought a Lee 6 banger 120 TC 9mm mold, (not the TL) for production. I shoot IDPA and the 2 cavity Lyman, 356402, although extremely accurate is a bit slow for maximum production. The Lee was a bevel base bullet. I only loaded 25 of them with 3.8 of 231 and tried them, in my Sigma 9VE which really shoots the cast Lyman 356402. The alloy was 15 on the Brinnell scale. Hard enough for autos. They leaded the barrel and the accuracy was not good.
I had the bevel machined off of the mold, bringing the weight down to 115 grns. exactly. I cast the new bullets out of the same alloy and sized them to .358, loaded them in Federal cases, all the same length, .748--.750 and 4.0 grns of 231 and Fed. Primers. NO LEADING,
and accuracy is excellent. I think that the higher pressure of the 9mm is not compatable with a bevel based bullet. I may be wrong, but a flat base seems to have cured the leading issue
for me, and I can really make some bullets with the 6 cavity mold.

My issue with BB commercial bullets is that they have been too hard with too hard a lube and undersized. generally one can work around one of those problems on it's own but two or more in conjunction just seem to be a never ending problem. That is why I started casting my own.

Very interesting disussion. Would the same consensus on BB bullets apply if the propellant were BP? I use BB bullets in my 44-40 Henry with BP, and they shoot very accurately out to 100yds. I also shoot .50 BB pure lead in my Civil War Maynard Carbine over BP, also with astounding accuracy out to 100 yds.

If the boolit fits in the first place then any good design should shoot, providing the gun likes it. The BB itself isn't necessarily the culprit. IF the BB is well designed and IF it comes out of the mould concentric it should do fine. The problem I have seen is that some times they aren't concentric and anytime you have an uneven base you'll have issues. With a FB design the base is uniformed to an extent when sized. The BB isn't going to get that action.

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Yes, go buy a mess of ultra hard, undersized BB boolits and put them in the target. Then you'll know why many of us view BB designs with distrust.

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I don't understand this. Wouldn't a plain base bullet that is ultra hard and undersized create a problem also? I only have one BB mould so my experience is limited but it drops a .360 diameter, 158 grain SWC for a 357 mag rifle I shoot and I shoot it as dropped. Never had a problem with accuracy or leading. Just seems to me if it is to hard and undersized it matters not what design the base is.......... it is not going to shoot good and probable lead like crazy.

Sarcasm friend. You're exactly right.

What I am about to contribute is based on my experiences with the 45ACP. I "try" to shoot bullseye and as such I use a quite mild load of fast powder in my reloads (which are performed on an old Star progressive reloader).

I feel in my case the mild load of powder can be the culprit for leading with either flat based or bevel based boolits which are too hard. Let me explain....

I cast my own boolits 20:1 lead tin in either a Hensley & Gibbs #68 SWC Bevel Base or #68 SWC Flat Base mold(s) (I have both mold variants in 6 Cavity). The 20:1 mix works great as long as I take the time to find and obtain very soft pure or near pure lead. I get no gas cutting or leading with these soft boolits. I lubrisize them on a Star lubrisizer with a custom .4525 sizing die using Magma Red hot lube. There is very little sizing going on but mostly lube application. All works well with either the bevel base or flat base... no leading with these soft boolits and mild fast powder load.

Now... for the bad news... At times I have cast a harder alloy in those same molds from alloy that was left over from a run of 44 S&W or 9mm. This harder alloy which was much harder than the 20:1 mix I use for the 45 ACP, and when I have tested the boolits, they wer in the 20 BHN range. The same happens when I have shot store bought hard cast bullets also in the 20+ BHN range.

These harder bullets did lead the 45ACP barrel (near the throat of the chamber only) with the mild powder load. I feel (hypothesis) that the mild bullseye load of fast powder does not obturate the base of the harder bullet and thus gas cutting takes place around the base. The rate of this leading is not excessive as I can easily shoot 100 rounds accurately but after that the accuracy starts to fall off due to the leading (or my tired muscles and eyes).

As I said, this is not too scientific but rather an observation that mild loads and hard bullets in my 45 ACP(s) cause leading at the chamber area. The bevel base or flat base does not have much to do with it but the boolit hardness does.

BTW, I arrived at the .4525 sizing after casting the throat of my target pistol. So the boolit fit is good and and is prooven at the target... from a Ransom Rest at 25 yards the pistol and soft boolit combo is capable of .72" 9 shot groups (that first shot always goes out on its own!).

Commercial lubes are to hard, so that the lube doesn't melt off the bullets on shipping in hot weather. Lube is the problem along with the size of the bullet not being .001" over groove diameters. Bullets swage into the bore.

Star4ever, welcome aboard! Just a thought on your issue- different alloys drop at different sizes and respond to sizing differently. I suppose people get tired of hearing me say it, but fit is King with cast and there may be some slight variation in fit that caused your leading.

I'm not a fan of depending on obturation to make a boolit fit. In any case where I have the option I try to get the boolit fitting from the start. Gives you more options that way IMO.

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Originally Posted by Bret4207

I suppose people get tired of hearing me say it, but fit is King with cast and there may be some slight variation in fit that caused your leading.

I'm not a fan of depending on obturation to make a boolit fit. In any case where I have the option I try to get the boolit fitting from the start. Gives you more options that way IMO.

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Bret, that is a great observation and I do not have the diameter data at hand for the harder bullets....

One question for you however, since fit is King. Is there a thread here that in which the process of bullet fit measurement and determination is brought forth?

Star

Thanks for your observations. I thought some of the posters were beating the bevel base bullets into the ground unnecessarily. Lots of hype no proof. Like I said earlier my buudy held a Master rating with his .45 for years. He shoots all my .38 cast like a champ. My BB cast bullets go in the same holes as my FB cast he sees no difference on target. He especialy likes the fact that there is no leading.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR :brokenima

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Originally Posted by STAR4ever

Bret, that is a great observation and I do not have the diameter data at hand for the harder bullets....

One question for you however, since fit is King. Is there a thread here that in which the process of bullet fit measurement and determination is brought forth?

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Boy, I wish there was. Correct fit is what the gun wants, I don't know how to explain it much more than that. I'm hesitant to try and define "fit" as I think it might mean something different to me than to others, but both of us may be correct. So keep an open mind on this.

In extremely general terms and IMO only most guns seem to respond well to a boolit that is about as large as will chamber easily. It usually seems best to err on the large side, undersized boolits (I include those that depend on obturation or "bump" for fitting) never seem to shoot as well as those that are closer to the right size in the first place. But that's not a hard and fast rule. And I can't say that any one formula ("...size .001 over groove size") works either. There seem to be odd duck guns that like a boolit at groove size and many others that shoot better with a range of boolits well over groove size. Boolit design can play a part in this too and of course there are limits to just how much we can do to affect the fit. In the end the powder/pressure combo is the final part of fitting a boolit. The barrel is the ultimate sizer.

So I suppose it's best to say that ultimately "fit" is finding the balance point or the happy combination of boolit size/design/pressure/temper/alloy (and probably a couple things I missed) in a particular gun with those particular components. In more basic terms "fit" is finding the general area the particular gun like it's boolits sized to.

I tend to like using a boolit as close to "as cast" as possible. Every sizing operation we do adds the chance of damaging the boolit, so I tend to be in the "leave well enough alone" camp. If I get problems at cast size, it's quite simple to try sizing down in steps and to see if that helps. You can also try different seating depths as that seems to affect the pressure curve and resulting fit. Sometimes a different powder will help, especially as you raise the FPS- too fast a powder can really ruin your day. I try not to jump to changing alloy. I prefer to use what I have a lot of that means WW alloy. There is a limit to what any alloy will handle pressure-wise, but WW with very minor additions of tin have worked for me up to 2200fps in rifles and 13-1400 in revolvers. No matter what alloy you use you still have to have fit the boolit to the gun.

Sometimes fit is simple and the first load you try will be a winner. Other times it seems that particular gun might hate a design of boolit and nothing makes it work. Some guns are just cast friendly, others hate cast of any kind. I don't know why, it just happens. When you get a good shooter and you want to really fit the boolit to the gun you have to move slowly changing one thing at a time and keeping good notes. NEVER change 2 things at once if you want to know WHY and WHAT worked or didn't work. You may see a trend that sticks out or over a number of experiments see a pattern that gives you insight into what seems to work in general terms. If you do, please share the info.

There are others here who have a much better handle on explaining things than I do. So I'm going to cut and paste this into another thread of it's own.

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Originally Posted by Bret4207

There are others here who have a much better handle on explaining things than I do. So I'm going to cut and paste this into another thread of it's own.

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Nahhhhhhhh, I think you said it very well.

A bevel base removes weight off the back and moves the center of balance forward. If your bullet has enough weight (hardness) to handle the loss of bearing length, then all you have to do is drive it a little harder to reach the same stabilization level. Clearly, the farther to the rear the C of B is, the easier a bullet is to stabilize. Plain base bullets designed for slow velocity use, usually had a wide rear band for this reason.

If you can't reach the higher velocity / RPM because of one of the show stoppers for cast ( hardness, lube quality, pressure, etc) then the bevel will be less accurate for you than somebody else that has conditions required to launch it well.

The heavier a bullet is the longer it is and the less critical is minor weight shifts from either lead removed off the nose or the base to affect balance. So heavier bullets per caliber tend to be more flexible or as some would say, shoot better.

Great post BA, as always!

i just have to add my 2 cents,,i am i believer of bullet fit! if the bullet fits the bore snuggly then gas cutting cannot happen! i hear from all the bigtime gun magazine writers that leading is caused by bullets being to hard! they know or maybe they forgot the basics of cast bullets,,make the bullet fit the bore! what they say is right,,softer bullet to let if expand to fit the bore,,but if the bullet fits the bore already you don't have to worry about the bullet,,maybe lube,,maybe powder but you know the bullet fit is correct,, any way i guess my ranting is over,,:) but i guess my point is if the bullet fits the bore correctly bevel base or plain base should not matter!

I spoke with a gentleman a Magna quite awhile ago and asked why so many of their designs are BB. The answer was because they drop from the molds in their machines easier.
If you look at the Lee BB designs most have a much smaller BB than a Magna design, except for the 200gr. SWC 45 cal.
I have cast boolits in my molds with alloy from commercial "Hard Cast" and I got a small amount of leading with the same sizing, lube, load, etc. as I normally cast.
Could the commercial alloy be just enough differerent to contribute to leading? The surface appearance of the bullet is differernt with commercial alloy compared to my home brew.