Leading in Barrrel

I have had a lot of what I consider a lot leading in my 45 ACP barrels after a trip to the range. I usally fire off about 100 - 300 rounds in a session. When I look down the barrel I can see slivers of lead and gobs of lead buildup.

I use straight ww.
Water cool.
Tried Alox, Johnsons Paste wax and various other lubes.
Tried different powders, currently using Hodgrens Bullseye.
4.4 gr with a 230 gr LRN
Slugged both guns:
Kimber UC .452
Wilson .4508
Unsized boolits out of the mold .452

I just cleaned both pistols for any copper fouling but did not get any telltale blue stain.

Both guns lead up about the same, it seems the Wilson should be about right as far as size goes.

I am thinking that maybe the lead is too soft.
Is there a way to get larger bollits out of my mold.

What am I missing?

some 45's like them hard as they have shallow lands.
you can go to a harder alloy i have heard of going all they way to lino and the harder the more accurate.

Nothing glaring that I see. I would use air cooled WW not water cooled. Try that first. If no-go and you feel you need a larger boolit, try "beagling". The process is explained well here http://www.castpics.net/. Go to "Articles by Members" on left menu, It's the 18th article on left side titled "Bullet Diameter Enlargement"...Ray

I run range lead at 3.8 gr. of Bullseye with a 200 gr SWC. Sized at .452 and they run at 760 fps or so. There is NO leading, and they are as accurate as I can shoot them.

Shiloh

I think you are doing everything right, except you should try sizing your bullets and be sure to lube them before and after you size them.

By the way, water cooling does significantly increase the hardness of my bullets; I've tested it with The Lee Hardness Kit. Also, I find it easier/quicker to water drop.

Additionally, I cleaned the lead out of my barrel with a few copper strands from a "Chore Boy," wrapped around a brass barrel brush and ran it dry through the barrel several times, with good results.

Of course, I got different results from that, with different guns :lol:

Flatlander,
I asked that question about my 9mm and got this answer. If it were straight wheelweight air cooled and your load is slower, it won't happen. If you make the bullets even harder, then you possibly can push them almost as fast as jacketed. It seems the problem is taking a moderately hard bullet and driving it fast enough that the rifling starts slicing off chunks of it.
You can see where a softer, slower load would work, a harder bullet would work except, just not the combination you've got.

Actually, the man said it was like running a head of cabbage down a sauerkraut shredder! Found that amusing, more so than leading.
Something to think on. Ron

RFR or Ray might be right. But flip a coin. Since you started with water cooled and it was leading, you might want to try softer (air cooled) first. They might bump up. WD WW should be around 18-20+ BHN. Air cooled will be around 12. I have always used air cooled for the 45. You could always remove the WD with a stint in the oven then air cooling. If this doesn't fix it, try harder: oven heat treating or by alloying lino. Since your Wilson has smaller grooves than as dropped, beagling probably isn't going to help, at least in that gun. Who knows, there might be two different issues going on (different for each gun). Best I can do, FWIW.

Thanks for the information guys!
Lots of things to try now.

Don't over look the reloading process. Are you sizing your lead down somehow in the process? Using a factory crimp die? Are you belling the case enough before seating the bullet? Too much crimp?

You are shooting a boolit the same size as your barrel. You are counting on it bumping up. WDWW probably won't unless given way more push than you want to. Softer or larger are your choices, and I'd suggest larger.

Look for the sticky on beagling a mold.

First things first- are the barrels smooth? Any constrictions in them at all? Any rough or tight spots? Do as Randy suggests and check your loaded rounds- if the seater is sizing your .452 boolits to .449 then you'll have problems and it can happen. Same for the crimper. Are these bevel based or square based boolits? Do these barrels have the older style shallow grooves?

I also think the Wilson at least would shoot without leading given a decent lube and load. I think Randy may be onto the problem with one of the dies "squishing" the boolit smaller. The Kimber sounds like it'll need a fatter boolit, but sometimes they'll do fine with a "skinny" boolit if things mesh together right. Your alloy should be fine as is for 45 ACP speed and pressure so I'd take a hard look at fit.

If accuracy remains the same, from round 1 to 300, you dont have leading.

Quote:

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Is there a way to get larger bollits out of my mold.

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Add linotype or antimony.

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Bullet Sizes & Weights – How to Vary Them
Quote:
The bullet diameters and weights presented in this list
are based on the use of Taracorp’s Lawrence Magnum
bullet alloy (2% tin, 6% antimony, 1/4% arsenic,
91.75% lead).
Bullet diameters and weights will vary considerably
depending on the lead casting alloy used. This variation
can be as much as 1/2% on the diameter, and 8% on
the weight among the most commonly used casting
alloys. For example, a .358-158 grain bullet might
show a diameter variation of .002", and a 13 grain difference
in weight.
Of the most commonly used alloys, wheel weights (.5%
tin, 4% antimony, 95% lead) will produce bullets having
the smallest diameter and heaviest weight, with
such bullets running approximately .3% smaller in
diameter and 3% heavier than bullets cast with
Taracorp's metal. Linotype will produce bullets with the
largest diameter and lightest weights. This alloy will
produce bullets approximately 1/10% larger and 3%
lighter than Taracorp. Other alloys of tin and antimony,
with antimony content above 5%, will produce bullets
with diameters and weights falling between those cast
from wheel weights and linotype.
Alloys containing little or no antimony will cast considerably
smaller than wheel weights and in some cases
will produce bullets too small for adequate sizing.
Within the limitations given above, the weight and
diameter of a cast bullet can be adjusted by varying the
alloy’s antimony content.
The size and weight of bullets of a given alloy will also
vary according to casting temperature. Higher temperatures
will result in greater shrinkage as the bullet
cools, thereby producing a slightly smaller and lighter
bullet than one cast of the same alloy at a lower temperature

Could be that the bullets need to be softer so they obdurate better, or harder... just gotta play with it. :)

It is true that harder is not always the answer to the leading question, as Saint Elmer Keith has said back in the day.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 243winxb

If accuracy remains the same, from round 1 to 300, you dont have leading. Add linotype or antimony.

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If he has an undesirable build up of alloy in the barrel then yes, he has leading. There's no reason for material to build in the barrel if the boolits/alloy/load/lube combo works. I understand the idea behind what you're saying but feel it doesn't address his issue entirely.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jonk

Could be that the bullets need to be softer so they obdurate better, or harder... just gotta play with it. :)

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Obturation, not obduration, is a makeshift answer to the problem. The boolit needs to fit, the alloy needs to be suitable for the pressure and the gun has to "like" the boolit/alloy/pressure/lube combo.

Flatlander

"Tried different powders, currently using Hodgrens Bullseye."

Are you sure that is the powder?

I'm not concerned about the mispelling but "Hodgrens" and "Bullseye" do not go together. If it is Alliant Bullseye Powder then I'd suggest adding 2% tin to your WWs and air cool them and use a good 50/50 beeswax/alox lube like Javelina or Lars.

Larry Gibson

You are missing one important item from your data list. That is what diameter did you size your bullets to? Your bore diameter (as you have listed) is .4508" so a sized diameter of .452" will be perfect for your gun. If you are loading the bullets unsized, do you know if your bullets are perfectly concentric?

The other item that you need to pay attention to (which I assume you have) is the quality of the seating operation. Your bullets should be as pristine when they are seated as they are when they are prior to being seated. One of the other posters mentioned that - that there shall not be any lead shavings produced during the seating operation.

Good luck!

the one thing i do see here is the fast powder.
i know forever the load for 45 was 5 grs b-eye it was even the load for jacketed during the war.
but i have had good luck with 6 grs unique. and air cooled ww's with pure mixed in.
if you want bigger there are ways to get it
funny it's the only place i actually like unique.in the 45 acp. i'd try a powder change first.

The Powder currently in use is Hodghon Titegroup, so much for my recall ability.
Both guns are fairly new so I don't think they would have old style shallow groves.
If you look at my avatar you will see my mold, flat based as you can see.
I have beat the crimping issue to death in another thread and my dimensions are OK and no lead shavings!

The bollits are not concentric, they range from .451 - .453 out of round.
I have sized with a .452 die but it just makes them a bit rounder.

243WINXB may have something!

“Of the most commonly used alloys, wheel weights (.5%
tin, 4% antimony, 95% lead) will produce bullets having
the smallest diameter and heaviest weight, with
such bullets running approximately .3% smaller in
diameter and 3% heavier than bullets cast with
Taracorp's metal.”

This might get me to a size large enough to size to .452 and make them round.

My advice is take most of the above advice, and apply it to the Wilson first, when you get it to shoot straight and not lead, THEN work on the Kimber. I have a Kimber and a Springfield and the Kimber absolutely gave me fits with cast. It has a .4523" (IIRC) groove diameter. I have a special mould for it and it casts .454" and gets sized to .4535 and loaded with Winchester cases only (thinnest I could find so it would chamber the extra-fat boolits). I use 16:1 alloy for it, too, because they are hollow points and I eventually determined alloy wasn't really causing my leading problem.

Remember, harder boolits don't usually stop a leading problem. If it did, then copper j-words wouldn't leave all those streaky little treats in our gunbarrels.

Gear

My experience with Titegroup is that it is a very hot burning powder, to the point that I could feel the barrel heat up more than usual. I would try a different powder first.

i do not know how fast your boolits are shooting. i had leading in mine untill i dropped the charge down a little. besides, it makes it more pleasant to shoot. remember, the majority of the time, these are PRACTICE rounds. this is not what most people use for ccw defense rounds. unless you are practicing for long range shooting the p.o.i. will not be very far off if any. mine did not change at all when shooting 10 yards.

I am thinking that my problem may be as simple as too hot a pour. I carefully measured a dozen boolits after sizeing. They are not round and do not clean up so they are undersize.

I think my first thing to do would be to cast at a lower temp to see what happens to the size.
Next I could increase the hardness (and maybe size) by adding some alloys, at the same time I could make a batch softer by air cooling. Seems to me that size is the first thing to fix, unless this is right everything else is in question.

I will experiment to see what happens with different methods.

Then I will play with velocity and try other powders.

I have more than enough information to act on! What a great resource this site is.
Thanks!

Fit (size) is king in cast. You're right in pursuing that. But why do you think your pouring to hot? What do you mean by "too hot a pour"? There are two things to remember regarding temp when casting- pot heat and mould heat. Once you have the alloy pouring well you pretty much control the mould heat by your casting tempo. The more often the mould is full of hot alloy and the less time it remains empty the hotter it will run. I'm told a hot mould (frosty boolits) make a smaller diameter boolit but I've never seen it happen with my stuff in 30+ years of casting. Even using a tenths reading mic there is too much variation between boolits to say the hot mould made any difference. It could happen, I'm just saying I've never seen it.

If you're going to start changing things- alloy, hardness, etc- do ONE thing at a time or you'll never know what made the difference.

Did you pull any boolits from loaded rounds to see if they are altered during loading? It happens.

I had an issue with soft boolits getting reduced in size during seating. I have a square deal press that uses proprietary dillon dies, so not much flexibility in terms of dies for oversize boolits. I make sure my boolits are large enough diameter and water quench so they are hard enough to remain the same size when seated. Soft lead will get swaged down when seated if your die is expecting a smaller diameter boolit than you're using. As long as they're a .001 or so over groove diameter hard works well.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Flatlander

The Powder currently in use is Hodghon Titegroup, so much for my recall ability.
Both guns are fairly new so I don't think they would have old style shallow groves.
If you look at my avatar you will see my mold, flat based as you can see.
I have beat the crimping issue to death in another thread and my dimensions are OK and no lead shavings!

The bollits are not concentric, they range from .451 - .453 out of round.
I have sized with a .452 die but it just makes them a bit rounder.

243WINXB may have something!

“Of the most commonly used alloys, wheel weights (.5%
tin, 4% antimony, 95% lead) will produce bullets having
the smallest diameter and heaviest weight, with
such bullets running approximately .3% smaller in
diameter and 3% heavier than bullets cast with
Taracorp's metal.”

This might get me to a size large enough to size to .452 and make them round.

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Another part of my first post was the addition of 2% tin. You'll be surprised at the difference that makes in the alloy. Fillout will be much better reducing the amount of out of roundness and you won't have to cast as hot. The large amount of antimony with lttle tin in many strqight WW alloys causes the problems you are having. Also I know numerous shooter of such cast bullets in .45s that use Titegroup with no leading problems.

Larry Gibson