Meplat: How Big is Too Big ?

Hello everyone,
I have been creeping around here for a long time but haven't posted before now. Thanks everyone for the immense knowledge shared! I am about to take the plunge into revolvers and casting boolits. I am a lifelong "gun nut", deer hunter, handloader, and FFL, so not new to guns, just revolvers and casting. Years ago I almost got into casting (for a Ruger 77/44 and TC Encore 45 Colt, both with integral suppressors), but never did. I am now starting out with a Ruger Blackhawk Bisley 45 Colt 5.5" , and Ruger Blackhawk Bisley Flat Top 44 Special 4.75"? (Lipsey's). I am set on LBT/WFN style boolits. I plan on using 250-275gr range in the 45, and 240-260gr range in the 44. Velocity range +-1000fps for both guns. I'm not a fan of heavy recoil, less so as I get older. Hunting will be deer up to #230 (usually less) and hogs up to #300 (rarely). Shots would be up to 50yds with the ability to stretch out to 75 if needed. I am dead-set on Meplat of at least 80% for hunting loads. On Accurate Mold's site I have found many designs that fit my criteria, but have also seen some WFN styles with Meplats over 80%. Years ago I had a long telephone conversation with Veral about this. It's been a long time and my memory is rusty. IIRC he explained to me that the closer you get to full wadcutter, the less stable in regards to longer range accuracy and straight-line penetration. He offered to make an OWC (ogival wad cutter), but said it wouldn't be as stable as WFN, or LFN. That being said, my question is this: For my intended purpose, where do I "draw the line" in regards to Meplat width ? 80%, 85% ? More? I'm sure any of the designs I'm looking at would zip right thru any deer I am going to encounter, but I would prefer they not tumble and have straight-line penetration. In the thickets where I hunt a good size exit wound is critical to finding the deer if they dont' drop within a few feet. Thanks in advance for your help !

On another note, my first ever mold is being delivered today. It's an MP 454-423 Plain Base brass 4 cavity. I wanted to start with a classic design. Should be a good starter for plinking and hunting.
I also have some Missouri Bullets PC Keiths on the way for both guns, until I get set up to cast my own.

I have killed more deer with a 358429 172gr Keith than with all my rifles combined. Not a brag, but I always wear my M28 S&W, and it came down to opportunity. So 80% is fine. At those velocities, you can use whatever alloy. In 45 Colt, my Dad and my younger brother used a Keith nominally 255gr that dropped 267gr from the mold, and I dare say if it was 230-240gr, I doubt it would be less effective. If a 220gr was available, it would do what you want and could be driven to 1150-1200fps with no added felt recoil and shoot a smidgen flatter to 75yds.
My $0.02 for the day.

KB

Sent from my SM-A546U using Tapatalk

My 2 cents
If it feeds , it will work with a decent load

For Whitetail Deer I like a large Meplat and a modest velocity regardless of caliber
I used to hunt with a Ruger SRH in 454 Casull and wanted to push the bullet as fast as possible

But after cutting away a bunch of blood shot meat several times
I woke up
So I now load a 85% meplat 275 gr GC powder coated cast bullet in the 454 that is a about 45 Colt Ruger load
In the 44 Mag a 85% meplat 250 gr GC powder coated cast bullet at just above the middle load of 2400
The 45/70 is a 400 gr NOE mold powder coated at about 1400 FPS out of the BFR or the Marlin not sure of the velocity

Nothing fancy or fast
But all 3 loads shoot good groups and are easy to shoot

John

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Originally Posted by Johnch

My 2 cents
If it feeds , it will work with a decent load

For Whitetail Deer I like a large Meplat and a modest velocity regardless of caliber
I used to hunt with a Ruger SRH in 454 Casull and wanted to push the bullet as fast as possible

But after cutting away a bunch of blood shot meat several times
I woke up
So I now load a 85% meplat 275 gr GC powder coated cast bullet in the 454 that is a about 45 Colt Ruger load
In the 44 Mag a 85% meplat 250 gr GC powder coated cast bullet at just above the middle load of 2400
The 45/70 is a 400 gr NOE mold powder coated at about 1400 FPS out of the BFR or the Marlin not sure of the velocity

Nothing fancy or fast
But all 3 loads shoot good groups and are easy to shoot

John

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Sounds like we are on the same page. What are those two 85% meplat molds you mentioned ? Also, do ya'll know of any company making direct copy of LBT WFN molds ?

My understanding is the magic number is 70% from an external ballistics perspective. That said, I've see larger metlaps do wonders. Look at the Hammer Molds. Basically a flying soup can. If it's accurate and gets it done, who am I to judge.

I shoot the Lee C452-300-RF and the metplat is probably around 85%. And for a pistol bullet the BC is decent at 0.233. Lee shows the BC of their bullets on their charts.

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Originally Posted by 6.5X284ever

Sounds like we are on the same page. What are those two 85% meplat molds you mentioned ? Also, do ya'll know of any company making direct copy of LBT WFN molds ?

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I made those 2 molds

Not sure about direct copies of the LBT Molds

John

I will give Veral his due about the long range part but as far as penetration goes the large meplat in the 70-86% range penetrates straighter than a long skinny one IMHO and experience. For ME and maybe just me, but I have tried every concoction my weak mind could dream up and while I have had success with big fat meplats, nothing beats Elmers 429421 SWC for a do it all boolit.

My MP 454-423 just got here. Beautiful piece !

My MP 454-423 just got here. Beautiful piece ! Meplat seems to be ~.33". Didn't include any paperwork whatsoever. I'll have to research how to maintain it and preheat it. My Missouri Bullets for the 45 also came in. They are Keith style 255gr, the box says "Elmer", so I guess it's some version of the original Keith mold. There is a small "heel" on the base, Meplat seems to be ~.32"

Rationalize it out without meplatitis taking hold, a deer can tell nothing about diameter you shot him with. If a 70% meplat works well in a 41 cal, then that same meplat size is roughly 67% in 44 cal, and 63% in 45. This years deer was shot EOD on the last day of season while I was dragging in 2 others for family. She crossed in front of the tractor, broke down the hill and turned almost broadside at a lope. I shot her with my Mod 69 S&W 2.75 inch with a 250 Lee round nose at 15 Bhn which was probably no faster than 850 fps at that range. The gun was all I had on me and that was what was in it. At the shot she stopped, looked at me and began to cuss me out for NOT using a 45 with a 130% meplat. She went about 40 yards and sat down then fell over similar to an arrow lung hit reaction. My point is everything will work and everything will fail if you use it enough. It was a finger size hole in and out, blood everywhere.

Well. . .#1 is that the gun has to work. Not a major concern in a revolver or Contender, but if it has to double-duty in a gun where it must transit up a ramp, you may want to be a little more conservative with the nose.

The 452/454423 is Keith's concept for the .45 Auto Rim with a 75% meplat of .34". He never had any illusions of it being a long range bullet - it's pretty much all about blunt force trauma. He got a bit more artsy with the 255 grain 454424 as an all purpose bullet, but I often joke that Elmer must have been a little pissed off at the world when he designed the single-function 423. I've tried a couple copies of it and found it to be closer to 245-250 grains than the 238 it's advertised as - probably due to less linotype being used in our world today. Honestly, at 1,000 to 1,100 fps, it may be all you need. FWIW 75% seems to be the classic formula for the WFN concept, and the LFN's go about 70% and generally have a reputation for flying better over distance. If all you're doing is 75 yards, it's probably of little concern.

YMMV, but I'm a little dubious on the whole blood trail concept. Solid hits to the boiler room will drain a lot of blood into the chest cavity, but that blood is draining internally and downward away from the hole, and the skin is likely sliding back and forth over the hole preventing much in the way of external draining. A WFN that shatters the opposite leg AFTER taking out the heart may be a safer bet for the easy find.

If you don't love that 454-423 I will be surprised my friend. It looks to have a real square lube groove and that is supposed to be the mark of uncle Elmer.
My 45 mold that I am having great success with is an Accurate mold # 45-253M and is has the meplat to make an impression on whatever it hits.Attachment 325781

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Originally Posted by murf205

If you don't love that 454-423 I will be surprised my friend. It looks to have a real square lube groove and that is supposed to be the mark of uncle Elmer.
My 45 mold that I am having great success with is an Accurate mold # 45-253M and is has the meplat to make an impression on whatever it hits.Attachment 325781

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That one is actually already on my short-list on the Accurate site. It may check all the boxes.

All the 45's I've shot it in took to it immediately. 45 Colt, 454, and especially the 45 auto rim.Attachment 325816

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Originally Posted by jdgabbard

My understanding is the magic number is 70% from an external ballistics perspective. That said, I've see larger metlaps do wonders. Look at the Hammer Molds. Basically a flying soup can. If it's accurate and gets it done, who am I to judge.

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That is the sticker, Accuracy
I have Hammer molds and Keith molds for my pistol
Have found the Hammer not as Accurate as the Keith(it has a 62% meplat) now this is out of a 6.5" pistol barrel
your milage may vary

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Originally Posted by white eagle

That is the sticker, Accuracy
I have Hammer molds and Keith molds for my pistol
Have found the Hammer not as Accurate as the Keith(it has a 62% meplat) now this is out of a 6.5" pistol barrel
your milage may vary

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I too prefer Keiths. But I've shot other molds with large meplats and they did very well. I'm not one to think that all large percentage meplat bullets will do well. I haven't shot the hammer molds, but I hear good things about them generally. That said, there comes a point where you're basically shooting a wadcutter. Personally, I have found for accuracy and terminal effects, I get the best bang for my buck with 60%-70% meplats. The mold I'm custom ordering (my design) this afternoon is sporting a 65% meplat. In my experience this is usually a good compromise.

No such thing as too big. I shoot full wadcutters seated slightly out f the case for 38SW in my old Brit revolvers..looks great..paper target thinks they are great too. I imagine a bad guy would not like them though.

Attachment 325826

I am a big fan of Veral's LBT 250gr OWC-PB which has the largest meplat of any non-straight sided full wadcutter designs. It's very similar to boolits dropped from the Accurate # 45-253M mold.

I use this boolit in 45 Schofield brass over 21.5gr H110 with WLP primer with Veral's soft blue lube. This load goes right at 1200fps out of a 5 1/2" medium frame Vaquero, chambers reamed to 45 Schofield, and stays under the 23,000psi 45 ACP+P pressure ceiling this medium framed gun is rated for. The whole point of this project was not to download H110 to get into the slightly less than Ruger Only performance, but downsizing it into a smaller case keeping the high load density that H110 likes. Recoil is a LOT less than a full house Ruger Only load, it's snappy but pleasantly so.

Now that my health won't let me drag a yearling doe to the truck, it's ironic that I have the perfect gun/load combo for our sometimes kinda small Eastern NC whitetails.

Attachment 325827

Photo shows 3 LBT WFN boolits, LBT 250gr WFN-PB, LBT 250gr WFN-GC and on the right, the LBT 250gr OWC-PB

Thanks for all the great information so far, guys ! If Veral were still in business I would just order a 44 240 WFNPB and a 45 250 WFNPB and be done with it, as I trust he knew what he was doing. I see that there are some similar designs from others. At some point I may make a request for samples of those two LBT's to have duplicated by Accurate. If this casting thing holds my interest, I will probably accumulate a nice selection in fairly short order, as is my habit !

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Originally Posted by Soundguy

No such thing as too big. I shoot full wadcutters seated slightly out f the case for 38SW in my old Brit revolvers..looks great..paper target thinks they are great too. I imagine a bad guy would not like them though.

Attachment 325826

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10% 0ver bore diameter is too big.

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Originally Posted by ulav8r

10% 0ver bore diameter is too big.

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....unless you're shooting a blunderbuss...

I'm thinking my solution may be to have Accurate make a 4 cavity mold, 2 cavities with 80%, and 2 with something wider, then I can try both for essentially the same price. Do any of you have any RECENT experience with Accurate ? Are their posted ETAs realistic (I think 6 weeks currently posted) ? Any issues with them that I need to be aware of ?

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Originally Posted by 6.5X284ever

I'm thinking my solution may be to have Accurate make a 4 cavity mold, 2 cavities with 80%, and 2 with something wider, then I can try both for essentially the same price. Do any of you have any RECENT experience with Accurate ? Are their posted ETAs realistic (I think 6 weeks currently posted) ? Any issues with them that I need to be aware of ?

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As one who has tried two designs in one mold - DON'T! You're going to decide on one and against the other and then you just end up having to cull 50% of your casts before you even start to cull for defects.

Tom's fast. If he's saying six weeks, odds are the order will come considerably quicker. If you're designing your own or tweaking an existing one significantly, there is a bit of back and forth as he sends you revised prints to approve or reject. Might slow the process a bit, but you end up with what you want.

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Originally Posted by Bigslug

As one who has tried two designs in one mold - DON'T! You're going to decide on one and against the other and then you just end up having to cull 50% of your casts before you even start to cull for defects.

Tom's fast. If he's saying six weeks, odds are the order will come considerably quicker. If you're designing your own or tweaking an existing one significantly, there is a bit of back and forth as he sends you revised prints to approve or reject. Might slow the process a bit, but you end up with what you want.

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That's the kind of advice I needed. So If I have a 4 cavity mold, I have to cast all 4 at once, I can't just cast the 2 I want ? Does it have to do with mold temperature being maintained ?

In theory, you could get up to and maintain operating temperature using just two holes, but (a) not the way the blocks are designed to run, and (b), you're going to get overflow from one hole to the next that you'd usually just consider part of progressing to the next cavity. You're going to be dealing with blobs.

My attempt was a 2 PB / 2 GC for a rifle that simply didn't perform with the PB. Lotta money for a 2-cavity mold.

Advice: run your 454423 and figure out how it does and doesn't work for you, then use that info to order RIGHT.

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Originally Posted by Bigslug

In theory, you could get up to and maintain operating temperature using just two holes, but (a) not the way the blocks are designed to run, and (b), you're going to get overflow from one hole to the next that you'd usually just consider part of progressing to the next cavity. You're going to be dealing with blobs.

My attempt was a 2 PB / 2 GC for a rifle that simply didn't perform with the PB. Lotta money for a 2-cavity mold.

Advice: run your 454423 and figure out how it does and doesn't work for you, then use that info to order RIGHT.

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That sounds like good advice, I think I will hold off until I do some shooting with the guns and see what's what. Although NOE does have a copy ("our version") of the LBT 44-240 WFN in stock, I may order one of those as I consider the LBT design a safe bet. Their 45's are all out of stock, will prolly go with Accurate for those when the time comes.

I’m not a fan of heavy boolits, less than 250gr does anything & everything I need.

The 452423 is an excellent boolit, probably all you’ll ever need, but where’s the fun in that!? Mine drops 245gr with my alloy. It is my most used 45 mold, fallowed by the Noe TL452-234rf RanchDog clone, and the Lee 452-200rf.

The 452424, and Noe 454-276 SWC (group buy from the “Real Keith” thread) are also excellent. But I have them more out of nostalgia than anything else…

For the 44, MP and NOE make a 453423 in 44, (NOE 432-224 swc) it is an excellent choice in 44 just like 45.
I also had Tom make me 44 mold, Accurate 43-219A. It drops about 222gr with my mix. Both have been excellent in 44Spl and 44-40.

I’ve not taken any deer, but have coyotes and hogs out to 75yrd with all mine mentioned. And regularly take armadillos, and skunks lol

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Originally Posted by Wheelgun

I’m not a fan of heavy boolits, less than 250gr does anything & everything I need.

The 452423 is an excellent boolit, probably all you’ll ever need, but where’s the fun in that!? Mine drops 245gr with my alloy. It is my most used 45 mold, fallowed by the Noe TL452-234rf RanchDog clone, and the Lee 452-200rf.

The 452424, and Noe 454-276 SWC (group buy from the “Real Keith” thread) are also excellent. But I have them more out of nostalgia than anything else…

For the 44, MP and NOE make a 453423 in 44, (NOE 432-224 swc) it is an excellent choice in 44 just like 45.
I also had Tom make me 44 mold, Accurate 43-219A. It drops about 222gr with my mix. Both have been excellent in 44Spl and 44-40.

I’ve not taken any deer, but have coyotes and hogs out to 75yrd with all mine mentioned. And regularly take armadillos, and skunks lol

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I had my eye on that 43-219A, but then I noticed the front driving band was reduced (427), what was the reasoning behind that ?

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Originally Posted by 6.5X284ever

I had my eye on that 43-219A, but then I noticed the front driving band was reduced (427), what was the reasoning behind that ?

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Virtually everything on the Accurate website started as someone's custom order.

Remember that revolvers are going to lock in your nose location at the crimp groove, and the only way to practically change the location of the nose within the gun will be longer or shorter brass. The result of this is that people are gonna play with the length and width of that front band depending on what their gun throws at them. If you want a full diameter front band, put it in the notes with your order.

on another forum there's a guy who has tested many hundreds of bullets in all sizes and shapes

he has come to a conclusion about ultimate meplat size for penetration, depth and straight line

I guess if I were shooting elephants, or rhino's, I'd be more attentive...

I had that made for a Uberti 1873 saddle ring carbine in 44-40 with a .428 barrel, and a SAA in 44-40 with .430 throats and .428 barrel.
Also having it useful in my Rossi 92 and Uberti SAA with .430 barrels

It has also proven itself in a friends S&W 44Spl.


* As “Bigslug” said, if you put it in the notes, Tom will make the nose/front band about any size you ask…