FFL question on a model 1863 falling block rifle

I have recently been thinking about rolling my own paper cartridges and seeing if I can find a falling block reproduction of a Sharps model 1863 target rifle. My question concerns the law for this type of firearm. It is a breech loader but only for black powder. I understand one can load it with loose powder or form a paper cartridge for the black powder load. I am most interested in forming the paper cartridge that is made up of boolit/black powder/thin paper to hold it together. It would then take a cap for the spark to set it off. I am seeking a knowledgeable opinion on this and I'm not trying to circumvent the FFL route. I haven't inquired anywhere else on this and thought I'd ask the great minds here first. Thanks for your opinion.

check with both the ATF + your state Attorney Generals office - in my state it would be classed as a modern weapon + require both nics check + state licensing - get your determinations in writing from authorized regulatory sources + do not depend on any internet advise or opinions ! -

Call a ATF office and ask to speak to a enforcement agent. They'll know right off the top of their head.

The govt. tinkers around with the laws all the time.

My understanding is that if it was made before 1898, anyone can have it shipped to them. The date the rifle was made is the determining factor. Sucks for replicas, but they're still firearms. They have to be "antiques" to be exempt. The determining factor for an "antique" is a date of manufacture prior to 1898. Though, if it was made after that, and if it meets certain other criteria, it may be C&R eligible, which would allow you to have it sent directly to you if you have your 03 C&R FFL.

Forget the ATF, does the seller require it be sent to an FFL?
That is the question.
More than likely it will have to be sent to an FFL because it is a breech loader and newly made, if it were original then no FFL.
We have gotten a lot of bad rulings from the ATF because of questions best not asked.
Just remember, everything is legal until a law or ruling is made against it.

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Originally Posted by smoked turkey

I have recently been thinking about rolling my own paper cartridges and seeing if I can find a falling block reproduction of a Sharps model 1863 target rifle. My question concerns the law for this type of firearm. It is a breech loader but only for black powder. I understand one can load it with loose powder or form a paper cartridge for the black powder load. I am most interested in forming the paper cartridge that is made up of boolit/black powder/thin paper to hold it together. It would then take a cap for the spark to set it off. I am seeking a knowledgeable opinion on this and I'm not trying to circumvent the FFL route. I haven't inquired anywhere else on this and thought I'd ask the great minds here first. Thanks for your opinion.

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State laws vary, however, for Federal it is classed the same as a muzzle loading rifles and cap and ball revolvers. No FFL required. Just check how major Companies sell them. https://muzzle-loaders.com/products/...odel-s-766-054

The BATF gives lots of incorrect information depending on the agent. FFL holders tend to recommend what makes them money. Places like MidwayUSA have done the legal research to get it right.

https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/t...e-usps.172116/

The 1859/63 as long as it’s still a paper cartridge and cap gun is just like a muzzleloader and should be able to purchased similarly. Some states may have their own rules.

Ok, so who is the vendor selling these?

The one I had back in the early 90's was a non FFL gun. As much as I liked it I also couldn't hit squat with it. It was me and not the gun, as my buddy could shoot it well. So down the road it went.

If you get one, get a good one. The ones Shiloh make will work correctly. Either the currently made ones or the ones from Farmingdale, NY. The Italian ones are designed differently and all of them need work to operate correctly. There are a couple of gunsmiths that work on them at the moment and one is fighting cancer so your options are limited. Keep this in mind when you are shopping and looking at prices.

Bill Goodman at Goodman Guns is a good resource for finding one if you don't want to wait three years for Shiloh to make one for you.

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Originally Posted by jdgabbard

My understanding is that if it was made before 1898, anyone can have it shipped to them. The date the rifle was made is the determining factor. Sucks for replicas, but they're still firearms. They have to be "antiques" to be exempt. The determining factor for an "antique" is a date of manufacture prior to 1898. Though, if it was made after that, and if it meets certain other criteria, it may be C&R eligible, which would allow you to have it sent directly to you if you have your 03 C&R FFL.

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not true in many states - here + in some other areas if it takes any cartridge still available it must go thru a licensed dealer - even civil war era .22 revolvers are classified as modern firearms as are all post 1898 non cartridge weapons - state + local laws can be stricter than federal law, but they cannot conflict with them -

I have purchased an E. Remington & Sons Hepburn rifle in 40-65, the serial number showed it was made in late 1880 or early 1881. The ONLY original part on the gun was the receiver. It was shipped from an FFL dealer direct to my front door.
Also purchased a Remington 700 ML action (original model 700, NO Bolt Lugs) from a dealer, also shipped directly to my house.
I assume these dealers new what the regs were.

Dave

Much confusion over this. Anything made before 1899 is an antique and requires no FFL to be involved. It doesn't matter what caliber it is. That being said, some dealers ship ALL guns to an FFL. I recently bought a M1871 Peabody in .43 Spanish and the shop insisted it go to an FFL. It didn't need to, but it did. These supposed restrictions on "commonly available ammunition are ridiculous. Try to buy .43 Spanish ammo at Walmart.....

Also, I have bought antique Winchesters in 45 70 and needed no FFL. 45 70 is commonly available, so there's that too. Quite honestly, these laws are ridiculous. I bought a 1895 Marlin in 40 82 made in 1903 and needed an FFL, bought one in 45 70 made in 1896 and needed no FFL. What's the point? Same gun, just a different manufacture date. Besides, the remember the "Shall not infringe " rights we're supposed to have. All of these restrictions are constitutionally illegal.

Woops I missed the OP's point. Being this gun doesn't take a cartridge it should not need an FFL, no matter when it was made or what end you load it from..

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Originally Posted by freakonaleash

Woops I missed the OP's point. Being this gun doesn't take a cartridge it should not need an FFL, no matter when it was made or what end you load it from..

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jn many states like mine even post 1898 non cartridge arms require state licensing, background checks, + transaction must go thru licensed dealers -

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Originally Posted by schutzen-jager

not true in many states - here + in some other areas if it takes any cartridge still available it must go thru a licensed dealer - even civil war era .22 revolvers are classified as modern firearms as are all post 1898 non cartridge weapons - state + local laws can be stricter than federal law, but they cannot conflict with them -

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That is a STATE REQUIREMENT, not a Federal Requirement. Where it concerns federal laws, modern firearms are those manufactured after 1898. And thus are the only ones the GCA is not concerned with. What your state requires is a different issue, and one that really is better suited to someone living within your particular state.

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Originally Posted by freakonaleash

Woops I missed the OP's point. Being this gun doesn't take a cartridge it should not need an FFL, no matter when it was made or what end you load it from..

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I missed this one too. Looking VERY briefly at Missouri's statutes it doesn't appear it would be considered a modern firearm even under state law, which carves out exceptions for breachloading firearms. But again, he should check with someone local.

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Originally Posted by elmacgyver0

Ok, so who is the vendor selling these?

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https://shilohrifle.com/rifles/1863-...porting-rifle/

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Originally Posted by Hondolane

https://shilohrifle.com/rifles/1863-...porting-rifle/

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According to the Q&A Page on the sight: https://shilohrifle.com/ordering-info-and-instructions/

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Please be advised that when picking up your rifle from the factory, we will run the N.I.C.S. background check. This has sometimes caused delays in which the customers have had to wait up to 7 days, if it has to run over the weekend.

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Doing an NICS check is a pretty good indicator you'll need to send it to an FFL of your choosing...

The key words in to OP are "Reproduction" and "Breech Loader", ANY Agent you talk to is going to say YES it mst be shipped to an FFL.

Dave

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Originally Posted by jdgabbard

That is a STATE REQUIREMENT, not a Federal Requirement. Where it concerns federal laws, modern firearms are those manufactured after 1898. And thus are the only ones the GCA is not concerned with. What your state requires is a different issue, and one that really is better suited to someone living within your particular state.



I missed this one too. Looking VERY briefly at Missouri's statutes it doesn't appear it would be considered a modern firearm even under state law, which carves out exceptions for breachloading firearms. But again, he should check with someone local.

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state laws are legally allowed to be much stricter then federal law as long as they do not conflict with it - the state can add requirements to ownership by law - awhile back several distributers were notified that shipment of 1891, 1893, 1895, 7X57 mausers is a feloney in a number of states even though they were pre 1898 vintage -

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Originally Posted by dirtball

The key words in to OP are "Reproduction" and "Breech Loader", ANY Agent yoy talk to is going to say YES it mst be shipped to an FFL.

Dave

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No, percussion sharps rifles originals or reproduction do not require an FFL transfer per federal requirements. States may have different requirement for within their own state and company are free to set an FFL requirement.

I want to say a BIG thank you to all for such good responses to my OP. I will do some checking locally to see what the FFL says where I usually shop. I do plan on purchasing a good reproduction. I personally am a patient person but given my age (78) I can't afford the time to wait for the Shiloh Sharps folks t make me one. There are a few on the big auction site that have some listed and that is probably the route I will go. I have a couple of C. Sharps ( a falling block in 45-120, & an 1874 reproduction in 45-70 ). Too bad Sharps is not making them any more. I will want a Shiloh if I can swing it. When ordered from them, they are the same price as an 1874 and that seems excessive to me. I am planning to devote some time looking for a good used one somewhere which should save me some bucks. At the moment it appears that my location (Missouri) will not require an FFL, but I will do some more checking first because I can't afford not to be legal. I'm looking forward to making the paper cartridges for some odd reason. I will probably try for a 45 caliber if I can.

Separate ignition system. Not a firearm under Federal law.

That's why retailers can ship them directly to your house unless you live in a state who's political systems are rigged by the Feudalist lords who own those states.

If you can't have a cap and ball shipped to your door, you can't have a paper cartridge Sharps delivered to your door.
If the dealer you're buying from cannot ship to your door then either fork over the money to the FFL or move to a state who's election system isn't rigged or if you are free, find a dealer selling a muzzleloader also in a free state.

Just for grins, here is a firing replica Sharps carbine on gunbroker; if yo look, an ffl tranfer is not required (at the federal level). They are not inexpensive, but Petersoli is a good gun.

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/1043528787

In the state of Louisiana , cap and ball guns , revolvers and rifles are not considered "firearms". I recently ordered an 1863 Police Pocket Colt revolver reproduction from IMA - USA and it was delivered to me at my house , no FFL or background check required . They also had the percussion 1863 Sharps Carbine that I would love to have .
I only had to sign a form that it was legal for me to own this firearm , and I am .

If there are any restrictions the seller should know of them ... But ask anyway !
Gary

You need to be aware of the laws in your own state. Some states do treat them just like modern firearms, even if federal law does not.

This happened in New Jersey about 10 years ago.

https://www.shootingillustrated.com/...ntlock-pistol/

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Originally Posted by schutzen-jager

jn many states like mine even post 1898 non cartridge arms require state licensing, background checks, + transaction must go thru licensed dealers -

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In New Jersey, a Daisy Red Ryder BB gun is in the same class as an AK-47. Background check, waiting period, etc, because it has a "magazine capacity" like a machine gun. No stopping anti-gunners when they're in control. (But, hey, we've GOTTA stop all those mass shootings with BB guns, now, don't we??) Nuckin' futz!

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Originally Posted by John in PA

In New Jersey, a Daisy Red Ryder BB gun is in the same class as an AK-47. Background check, waiting period, etc, because it has a "magazine capacity" like a machine gun. No stopping anti-gunners when they're in control. (But, hey, we've GOTTA stop all those mass shootings with BB guns, now, don't we??) Nuckin' futz!

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fwiw - in the past all bb + air guns were forbidden to possess at all in NJ- pea shooters, blowguns, + slingshots still are !

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Originally Posted by schutzen-jager

fwiw - in the past all bb + air guns were forbidden to possess at all in NJ- pea shooters, blowguns, + slingshots still are !

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https://airgunlaws.com/new-jersey-airgun-laws/

https://nj1015.com/bb-and-pellet-gun-laws-new-jersey/

state law trumps Fed. you might check with your LGS, they do this every day = DO NOT ASSUME IT'S LEGAL because you read it on the net.

Nj 2c39-3 - paragraph e

e. Certain weapons. Any person who knowingly has in his possession any gravity knife, switchblade knife, dagger, dirk, stiletto, billy, blackjack, metal knuckle, sandclub, slingshot, cestus or similar leather band studded with metal filings or razor blades imbedded in wood, ballistic knife, without any explainable lawful purpose, is guilty of a crime of the fourth degree.

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Originally Posted by schutzen-jager

Nj 2c39-3 - paragraph e

e. Certain weapons. Any person who knowingly has in his possession any gravity knife, switchblade knife, dagger, dirk, stiletto, billy, blackjack, metal knuckle, sandclub, slingshot, cestus or similar leather band studded with metal filings or razor blades imbedded in wood, ballistic knife, without any explainable lawful purpose, is guilty of a crime of the fourth degree.

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Does this apply to Cornpop as well? He's one bad dude.....

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Originally Posted by schutzen-jager

not true in many states - here + in some other areas if it takes any cartridge still available it must go thru a licensed dealer - even civil war era .22 revolvers are classified as modern firearms as are all post 1898 non cartridge weapons - state + local laws can be stricter than federal law, but they cannot conflict with them -

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Where do you live that your state law prevents any individual from directly purchasing a firearm made prior to 1898 and classified by federal law as an antique?

Kai
New Jersey is only one of several states that have this regulation -
nj2c39 antique definition - state laws can always be stricter than any federal law as long as they do not conflict with them - even civil war era .22 revolvers require same licensing to posses as any modern handgun -

NJ 2c39 quote -

What is Considered an Antique Firearm in NJ?
Under New Jersey law, an antique firearm is non-operational, does not fire ammunition available today, or was made before 1898. According to N.J.S.A. 2C:39-1, it is also a handgun, shotgun, or rifle that “does not fire fixed ammunition regardless of the date of manufacture” and is owned as historical memorabilia or as a “curiosity” or “ornament.”

Illinois, "The State of Corruption" is another state that requires all firearms to be transferred through a dealer as they do not recognize the antique designation. I believe Missouri recognizes antique firearms though, your local firearms dealer can tell you the correct info.

Unfortunately, many FFL's are clueless as well; I had one insist that tasers require a 4473. I also know of an old ATF agent, who does not believe that the category of antiques even exists, and has written up numerous local shops for not having them "on the books".