200 grain "The load " type load for hunting?

I was wondering if anyone out there uses a reduced load for hunting. If so, what distances are you limiting yourself to?

I have the Lee 312-185 mold that drops 200 for me. Been kicking around the idea of using 700x and figuring out what magic charge the gun likes. My range ends at 300 yards so that will be my ending point for plinking.

I plan on making the soft tip boolits that people use for cast hunting bullets. Where you use pure lead buck shot ball at the tip of the mold.

My thoughts on this is the fact my " plinking " load is what I practice with, so when it comes time to walk into the field nothing changes.

What cartridge? Why go to all the trouble and headache of casting a soft point. For the pressures you will be running most likely a good 20:1 alloy should work well.
Good Luck,
Rick

I can't believe I forgot that....

308 and 30-06

You could use a slower powder like 2400 or 4227 or even 3031 for a more gradual push to start them off. Higher velocity with lower peak pressure equals less likelyhood of leading, assuming you have proper fit to your bore. My $.02.

RickinTN has a point. Instead of creating some wrinkled (because the cold buckshot will chill the pour) out of balance, and probably lack-luster accuracy boolit, why not just use a softer alloy? If you want, you could probably get away with a really soft alloy, and be able to shoot it at a reasonable velocity, if you powder coat it. As far as the load, why not use "the load"; 13 grains of Red Dot. However, keep in mind that with reduced velocity loads, muzzle energy is going to drop off pretty quickly with range. Even if you can hit the target at 200 yards, you still need enough striking force for a humane kill on game. If I were you I wouldn't take shots where the striking energy falls below 600 ft/lbs.

In 2007 Ed Harris posted an article he wrote for the Cast Bullet Association that he found “the load” for cartridges of 308/30-06 and bigger to be 13 grains of red dot with most any weight bullet either lead or copper. Red dot is bulky and fills the case half way or more reducing the inadvertent double charge. He stated that you can expect velocity to be less than 1600fps depending on caliber and bullet weight.

Of course we are assuming that these suggested powders are available
in your neck of the woods. I have had some success with Herco and cast , but I got a deal on an 8 pound jug at the beginning of the Trump administration.

700X is a great powder. In my 03A3 and about 11 gr I got less than 1 min accuracy with 200+ gr cast boolit. Never went hunting with it because California said I had to use non-toxic boolits. Have used smaller calibers in Oregon. Hunted but haven't shot anything yet.

Ed Harris' article is worth a re-read from time to time. I believe he adresses alloy as well. Although Red Dot is an excellent powder for such use it is not the only powder which can be used. Unique, Herco, 2400, and many others will give similar results. In his previous writings Mr. Harris suggested 2400 as the choice powder. The only way to know is to get your feet wet so to speak and give it a try.
Good Luck to you and post your results,
Rick

2400 is pretty well tested and proven for this sort of thing - best results typically around or a little under 2,000 fps.

I hit upon AMAZING accuracy for my .30-06 Ruger Hawkeye with 36 grains of H414 behind the Accurate 31-194D cast of Lyman #2 - as cast about 185 grains before check and lube. This is a practice jug busting load for a rifle that will shoot Barnes in the field.

Such loads are practically in the flight envelope of the .30-30, so you're looking at 150-200 yards before you have to begin treating it like a mortar.

Even with a soft lead nose, I am not sure what kind of expansion to expect from a 30 cal RN bullet at the applicable impact velocities. Taking a file to the round nose to make a meplat and using a regular cast boolit from the softest alloy that will shoot good might be worth considering. For anything close to 200 gr in a 30 cal, penetration should be good at any distance where you have adequate accuracy.

Most any fast burning powder can probably be made to work.

Extensive testing was done to show this in a variety of guns. I can not get my old links to work to the parent GMDR lever gun page, but I was able to find a working page for a 170 gr in the 30-06, http://www.gmdr.com/lever/3006s170_dat.htm.

The page above does include some 700x data.

Note that the above testing frequently showed that accuracy went out the door when these kind of loads were pushed too far. Working up or down to find the most accurate load may be needed. Also note that in the tables below I picked a velocity that is probably higher than what your gun will be happy with.

Quickload does not have 700x in the database but I can run you tables with lots of fast burning powders. These tables are set up to show you how much powder it takes to get to the same velocity.

I view 700x as between Red Dot and Green Dot, but possibly closer to Red Dot. Using Red Dot data for a 700x load should be safe as long as you are not close to the maximum allowed pressure.

Note that I used a 22" barrel. This barrel length gave the best result for matching the velocities when I tried to duplicate the 170 gr test results from the GMDR web site.

Code:

Cartridge : .308 Win. (SAAMI) Bullet : .312, 185, LEE C312-185-1R with weight adjusted to 200 gr Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.600 inch = 66.04 mm Barrel Length : 22.0 inch = 558.8 mm C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations. USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON ! Powder type Filling/Loading Ratio Charge Charge Vel. Prop.Burnt P max P muzz B_Time % Grains Gramm fps % psi psi ms --------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------- Alliant BULLSEYE 43.9 12.5 0.81 1600 100.0 36119 2809 1.601 Accurate Nitro 100 57.8 13.0 0.84 1600 100.0 41820 2718 1.545 Alliant RED DOT 62.9 13.5 0.87 1600 100.0 43446 2683 1.528 Shooters World Clean Shot 44.7 13.6 0.88 1600 100.0 41775 2641 1.545 Accurate No.2 48.2 13.8 0.89 1600 100.0 37893 2692 1.586 Alliant GREEN DOT 58.4 14.0 0.91 1600 100.0 42403 2679 1.541 Hodgdon Clays 68.5 14.1 0.91 1600 100.0 46851 2622 1.494 Hodgdon TiteGroup 42.1 14.8 0.96 1600 100.0 44287 2634 1.522 Hodgdon HP38 41.3 14.9 0.97 1600 100.0 41897 2658 1.544 Ramshot Zip 41.1 14.9 0.97 1600 100.0 41467 2667 1.548 Winchester 231 45.8 14.9 0.97 1600 100.0 41467 2667 1.548

Code:

Cartridge : .30-06 Spring. (SAAMI) Bullet : .312, 185, LEE C312-185-1R weight set to 200 gr Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.000 inch = 76.20 mm Barrel Length : 22.0 inch = 558.8 mm C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations. USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON ! Powder type Filling/Loading Ratio Charge Charge Vel. Prop.Burnt P max P muzz B_Time % Grains Gramm fps % psi psi ms --------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------- Alliant BULLSEYE 38.8 13.6 0.88 1600 100.0 32065 3155 1.634 Accurate Nitro 100 51.2 14.1 0.92 1600 100.0 36617 3056 1.575 Alliant RED DOT 55.6 14.7 0.95 1600 100.0 37964 3019 1.555 Shooters World Clean Shot 39.7 14.8 0.96 1600 100.0 36400 2985 1.579 Accurate No.2 42.8 15.0 0.97 1600 100.0 33275 3042 1.625 Alliant GREEN DOT 51.6 15.2 0.99 1600 100.0 37127 3017 1.571 Hodgdon Clays 60.5 15.3 0.99 1600 100.0 40618 2956 1.516 Hodgdon TiteGroup 37.2 16.1 1.04 1600 100.0 38596 2971 1.548 Hodgdon HP38 36.5 16.2 1.05 1600 100.0 36691 2999 1.573 Ramshot Zip 36.4 16.2 1.05 1600 100.0 36349 3007 1.578 Winchester 231 40.5 16.2 1.05 1600 100.0 36349 3007 1.578

Try 10 grams of Unique as a start load, then adjust for accuracy. My 444 load is 12 grains with a 210, 30-30 is 10 wirh a 150 through a 180. Si in there is a point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rapier

Try 10 grams of Unique as a start load, then adjust for accuracy. My 444 load is 12 grains with a 210, 30-30 is 10 wirh a 150 through a 180. Si in there is a point.

Please check your spelling and advice, but as for me "10 grams of Unique" is a massive overload.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!! 10 grams is the equivalent of 153 grains!!!!!! That will surely lock a bolt up and rupture a primer. LOL

Just file a flat point on your 200 gr. boolit and go hunting, it will work just fine at 1400 to 1600 FPS no expansion needed with a good meplat. Now the RN type Boolitz have been used for years to harvest animals.

The reason for 700x is I have it and use it for all my pistol rounds.

I also have h335 type pull down powder. But I know that stuff gets squirrelly in partial loads. I had planned on keeping it for my 30-30 hunting rounds.

I use 700X in the 30-06,for paper and steel. I've not used it for hunting as Red Dot is much softer on my shoulder it might take a few tries to find a soft load that hits the same point of impact as your hunting load but that would be my advice would be to go that route. One soft load for practice and one load for hunting.

The Lyman #3 cast bullet manual shows 9.5 grains of 700-X is the start load for 160-190 gr. bullets in the 30-06, peak loads are around 13.0 grains. It should work as well or better than Red Dot. I concur that 2400 is probably the best choice, if you can find it.....

I can certainly understand the motive for using a powder you already have to come up with a low velocity, low recoil practice/plinking load. Makes perfect sense. But I'm not comfortable using such a load in a 30 caliber to deer hunt because there isn't likely to be much expansion at all. My personal threshold for acceptable deer cast loads is 2,000 ft/sec muzzle velocity. Not saying that anything below that won't work but I don't like learning where the cutoff point is on live animals. I guess you could do a lot of water jug shooting with successively lower velocity loads to watch for the velocity threshold where expansion stops or diminishes a substantial amount. I'd rather just load to 2,000 + ft/sec and hunt like I had a 30-30 factory load in my hands.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 35 Rem

I'd rather just load to 2,000 + ft/sec and hunt like I had a 30-30 factory load in my hands.

:2_high5:

We all have to learn. Just make sure you have a good pair of tennis shoes. :popcorn:

I used to shoot quite a few Lee 312-185 (IIRC mine drops at ~187 from ACWW) in front of 16 grains of 2400. Mine chronographed at just under 1600 fps from my 26" Parker-Hale barrel in .308. I never hunted with that load.

If I were to hunt with it, even with a BruceB softnose, I would treat it like an old .32-40 and limit myself to 100-125 yards on whitetail.

Will it kill a deer? Yes. Under all circumstances? Maybe not.

Robert

Early on, I tried the 312-185 in my '06 just because I had It. I found the nose was too big to chamber in the '06 but it worked well in the M-44. I bought a set of nose-sizing dies from NOE but that experiment was just folly! The nose diameter was .303, just like it was supposed to be but wouldn't fit any of the "American 30's" that I tried it in.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 35 Rem

I can certainly understand the motive for using a powder you already have to come up with a low velocity, low recoil practice/plinking load. Makes perfect sense. But I'm not comfortable using such a load in a 30 caliber to deer hunt because there isn't likely to be much expansion at all. My personal threshold for acceptable deer cast loads is 2,000 ft/sec muzzle velocity. Not saying that anything below that won't work but I don't like learning where the cutoff point is on live animals. I guess you could do a lot of water jug shooting with successively lower velocity loads to watch for the velocity threshold where expansion stops or diminishes a substantial amount. I'd rather just load to 2,000 + ft/sec and hunt like I had a 30-30 factory load in my hands.

This is getting pretty close to a solution for hunting. I have been shooting pigs with hollow point 175 gn cast bullets in .30-30, MV about 2200 fps, and I'm talking a couple of thousand or more, not just one a few years ago. I have found both the velocity and the hollow point necessary for consistent results on hogs. You can make your bullets into HP with a Forster hollow pointer, although mine come straight from the mould. For a soft alloy you will need to drill out about 6 gns of metal. For a harder alloy like I use, a bit on the hard side of #2, a 10 gn hollow has worked well.

In my Ruger .308 I have run the hard 175 gn bullet up to 2400 fps with 4350. It shot well at 50 metres, but groups opened at 100 metres, I believe on account of the 10" twist. Your .308 may have a 12" twist and thus handle the 2000 fps plus loads better.

I recently ran some comparisons of hard HP, soft HP and soft solid bullets on pigs, after using just the hard HPs for years. This was with 2100 - 2200 fps loads in .30-30. The writeups are on the Cast Bullet Association Forum in the Hunting section.

https://forum.castbulletassoc.org/ca...-cast-bullets/

Having never shot a deer, I have no idea how this might translate for your situation.

Most of my shooting is inside 100 meters, 150 at a pinch.

Sounds like I should make the plinking load and use it at the range. Worry about the hunting load when it comes to it. Thanks guys. Ask if you bring up good point

OP: if you were to look in the Lyman 3rd edition, Cast Bullet handbook you would find 700x powder listed in the 06 section with many different boolitz.

It does require that you look.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 35 Rem

I can certainly understand the motive for using a powder you already have to come up with a low velocity, low recoil practice/plinking load. Makes perfect sense. But I'm not comfortable using such a load in a 30 caliber to deer hunt because there isn't likely to be much expansion at all. My personal threshold for acceptable deer cast loads is 2,000 ft/sec muzzle velocity. Not saying that anything below that won't work but I don't like learning where the cutoff point is on live animals. I guess you could do a lot of water jug shooting with successively lower velocity loads to watch for the velocity threshold where expansion stops or diminishes a substantial amount. I'd rather just load to 2,000 + ft/sec and hunt like I had a 30-30 factory load in my hands.

I'm with 35 Rem on this one. I also prefer to use the top end cast bullet loads for hunting as they will kill quicker and more assuredly.

It certainly does, that's where my Idea came from. The 3rd addition is my go to for plinking loads with all the fast powders

Lakemaster, Many, many moons ago I was the proud owner of a double cavity 311284 that at some point in it existence one of the cavities had been reamed out for a plane base 311284. I still own an early Ideal 308284 SC mold. In the early years of this century, I using a PB version of the 311284 un sized and lubed with LEE's LA, loaded in a 303 brit case and motivated by 14 gr. of IMR 4759 (grains, NOT GRAMS ) for nearly 1400 FPS on my crony harvested a 2 year old Holstein steer helping my yougest brother.

The round was fired from a M4 SMLE that had already been sporterized before ending up in my possession. from a distance of 25 yards out in the pasture the boolit entered the forehead of said steer and probably to manys surprise here it entered and it didn't bounce off. I used to have that boolit for display but just checked and it has been reprocessed. Any how the steer instantly dropped after all 4 feet came up off the ground at the same time. While Bryan and I were cutting the carcuse in half we momentarily looked for the boolit. It had completely pernitrated the skull and we stopped looking after the 4th vertebrae in the neck. On delivering the carcuse to the meat cutter I asked Jim to be on the lookout for the long lean 311284 that he would find somewhere in the rights front quarter. When I picked up my portion of this beef animal, Jim proudly gave me back my Boolit. Jim had found the Boolit with the nose rivited and bent against to match the blade of the shoulder bone. Close to 40" of bone and soft tissue before lodging against the bone.

Magnumitus runs ramped in many here. I believe a well placed shot is of the most importance.

Work up your load and have fun.

Being you have Lyman #3, look in the front of the book for Frank Marshals articles and his experience with the 311284 in his 06 and 30/30, the long lean wind bucking machine as he called it. No it isn't perfect but it is still effective.

Ken

Quote:

Originally Posted by LAKEMASTER

Sounds like I should make the plinking load and use it at the range. Worry about the hunting load when it comes to it. Thanks guys. Ask if you bring up good point

No. It's March, almost April. Start your search for your hunting load NOW! It might be November before you get it figured out! The plinking load isn't generally very time consuming but trying to persuade a lead bullet to behave at 2000 fps can be!

"Magnumitus".......Hardly. Loading a 178 gr 311041 to 2000 fps out of a 30-06 or 308W hardly creates a "magnum" load in either. No one has said the OPs projected load wouldn't kill. If minimal power was all that was needed, we would all hunt deer with 22 shorts. Yes, a 22 short will indeed kill a deer. The problem is in most hunting situations it is not very quick killer. The deer or other game can go a long distance before it dies a protracted painful death. Same with small caliber cast bullets at minimal velocity as in under 1400 fps impact velocity. I've seen the sad results of such loads too many times before I learned. Sorry, but such loads are not my cup of tea.....

Yes, under certain, very controlled conditions such as hunting over a bait station, a minimal load can be effective depending on precise shot placement if one can guarantee that placement. However, for much other hunting such a guarantee of precise shot placement is not probable. Thus, when hunting with those methods in such conditions I've learned the hard way to use top end loads.