I acquired this breech seating tool for my 28-30 Stevens. Came from the same guy I got the rifle from last year. Figured I better reunify the two. What is the real advantage of breech seating?
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I acquired this breech seating tool for my 28-30 Stevens. Came from the same guy I got the rifle from last year. Figured I better reunify the two. What is the real advantage of breech seating?
Increased accuracy is the biggest advantage. Having a bullet gently seated into the barrel vs. jumping into the rifling from a case has proven to increase accuracy for over 100 years.
Then there's the fact you could shoot a rifle using the exact same case all year at matches, and probably not wear it out. Being able to pop a new primer into a case, charge it, and seat a bullet again to shoot. Never any questions if two cases are the exact same, since you're only using one.
And if conditions change at the range you can play with the powder charge a little to see if the gun shoots better with a little change in powder charge. Great when you're working up loads, or just trying to improve loads on a particular day.
Breech seated cartridges also shoot at lower pressures with equal powder charges due to the extra case capacity. So often you need to increase the powder charge to get to the same velocity of a fixed load in the same gun and cartridge.
I use a hand re-decapping tool, and my Harrell's powder measure to play with loads at the range. Only issue I've had is the occasional range officer who thinks it's dangerous having a powder measure at the bench. So then I have to setup my measure away from the bench to charge a case, and return to the bench to breech seat and shoot it.
Looks like a nice Weber tool you got with your Stevens!
Thanks will have to try it out. Do you use a card in the mouth of the loaded case or is that even needed? Got a 2nd tool in 32-40 but no idea what rifle it’s built for. Seemed a good idea to buy both of the tools.
Take good care of those breech seaters. They were made by Russ Weber who is no longer with us. They are the best breech seaters I've ever used.
You don't generally need a wad for any of the old cases when using smokeless. Just adjust the tool plunger so that the bullet is 1/2 engraved on the base driving band and you are off to a good start.
There is generally a big difference in accuracy with breech seated bullets over fixed ammunition. In my 32-40's and 38-55's I'd say it results in groups about 1/2 minute ( or more ) smaller at 100 & 200 yards.
Chris.
I avoid wads or fillers of any kind. With smokeless powders there's no need for them, and a wad can cause big problems if it's over the powder and the space between powder and bullet can cause a chamber to be ringed or bulged.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockingkj
There are accuracy stories from the old days of breech seating. One of the most interesting involves having a indexing mark on the bullet and for every round, moving the index 1 hour clockwise i.e. index mark at 1 o'clock, 2 o'clock etc. It was said that from a gun vise and maintainingg the same sight picture that one could shoot a circle on a target by just changing the indexing of the bullet. One of these days I'm gonna try it.
And yeah, every once in a while I get the "knowledgeable" range officer who informs me that "pounding the bullet into the barrel" is going to blow up my gun.
Great information. I will probably part with the 32-40 seater at some point since I don’t own a rifle for it.
Ps this looks like another rabbit hole!!!
I own a Ballard cased set with a Pope .28 Special that is a muzzleloader barrel. Will Hayes asked George Schalk to build him a ML barrel for his Ballard #6 Schuetzen model and Schalk balked at first, but finally gave in. Hayes went on to win almost every match he used the Ballard ML in!
When Hayes introduced Pope to Schalk, Pope and Schalk discussed Shalk's method of building ML barrels for breech seating cartridge rifles, and Pope went on to build more of them than probably anyone else did then.
That all ended when the method of breech seating bullets from the chamber end was invented. It was quickly determined the breech seated bullets shot as accurately as ML bullets, and a lot less tiring on the shooter to breech seat vs. ML a bullet!
I have only played with my Pope and Schoyen barreled rifles done as ML, and found breech seating a bullet in both guns is just as accurate, with far less effort.
I will definitely have to give it a try. Easy enough done since I have loaded rounds for my 28-30 and can breech seat a target to compare performance. Finding as I age seeing the target is more of an issue than it used to be. The rifle might be able to put em in one hole, just not sure I can. Lol
I have a Win/Jap Hi-Wall 32-40 that has not seen a jacket, started breech seating out of the box. Low to mid 240's way back when all three were in focus with safety glasses, then it turned into pick one with the scripts so she now wears glass also. I made one for mine that is adjustable and ran them at 0.060" ahead of case mouth. The old guard snarled at my 70's vintage Hurst shifter lever handle, (probably why I did it). I was instructed into the Kapok/floral foam in the Miller tribe along with all the ringing horror stories, no issues yet.
I'm another breech seating devotee. I will say though that I use either a 1/8" hard felt wad (and sometimes a greased felt wad) pressed into the case mouth so it protrudes enough to touch the bullet base. I do it mainly to prevent powder spillage if I accidentally jostle case on its trip to the chamber (I had it happen a couple times). I tested with my guns and can't tell a difference in accuracy, so at least it doesn't hurt.
I've read about indexing cases but not so much for bullets. I am having a hard time visualizing how you index a bullet and what do you index it to? Yes, people put prick punch marks in molds for various reasons. Case rarely are 100% straight or concentric so measuring and index case has a proven affect.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shanghai Jack
If I own a mold that opens the group without indexing the mold gets repaired or replaced.
I would imagine some soft sticky wax to stick the boolit to the tool. The boolits would have to be cast with an indexing mark on the mold, then you have a standard point of reference. I don't do it myself, but can see how it would work.
I have an early Hoch mold I picked up used and it has a very light center punch half way out on nose on one side. I have seen way back where some of the old guard "V" filed a notch for twelve O'clock positioning, the one case guys. They also had shooting boxes that looked like custom antique furniture with brass corners, slide out trays with there SPECIAL pills and inlaid tool areas, fold up rest under the lids. Absolute art at its finest, those are also the guys that shot 247-250 paper and always made me between sixth and tenth depending on who showed up! Characters from the old school and I feel very blessed to have had the experience, they were great guys!
I have several molds that have indexing marks or marks to indicate what cavity the bullet came from out of a multiple cavity mold. also. I've only done limited testing, but I have never found bullet indexing reduced group size. When I first got into BPCR I played with case and bullet indexing, but I found no benefit to either unless the brass had issues.
Not cast or breech seating but before 6.5/284 brass was available three of us split a 5,500-round barrel of 284 Winchester brass to form 6.5/284. That was the worst brass I've ever seen. It was both banana shaped and out of concentric. We had to index all of the cases to meet the accuracy required for long range competition.
Indexing is some fiddling around but it may improve accuracy to some degree. A case is marked on the rim to go in the chamber the same each way. any case variances are neutralized this way. The mould ( normally a single cavity) was marked with a small punch mark ti id where its was rotation-ally in the mould. Then if fixed ammo the case was indexed into the sizing die the same. charged primed and loaded with the bullet also oriented to the case / die. This was then loaded into the chamber in the same location. The thought was any uneven case walls neck walls out of round out of balance would be the same doing this.
At one time the Junke machine was in use it measured jackets bullets electrically to determine if jackets were concentric and the cores centered....
They still are but I am not aware of anyone using it for indexing. They are used it for sorting same as weighting. I've seen benefits from indexing brass. Bullets not so much.Quote:
Originally Posted by country gent
I’m probably wrong but thinking indexing the case on a breech seated bullet would have little difference since the case is not touching the bullet. Thoughts? I can grasp the thought of indexing bullet for consistency.
Probably at the end of the day a valid question. These guys probably had the same breakfast, same socks and shoes required for the Schutzenfest, but when they pull off a 249 12X open sights questioning them was not in my plan, I was a twenty year old with a Jap rifle. They had 100 year old rifles that were worth ten to fifteen times my brand new Win/Jap, The one thing I think I do know is every barrel and every receiver, every stock, every shooter, and everyday is a chapter unto itself. Trigger time and experimentation is required to get into the end zone or close to it!
I've fired the same case for the last 5 years but then I breech seat. Its marked on the base so it goes into the chamber the same each time. The indexing of the bullets is accomplished by aligning a mark on the bullet with a mark on the breech seater. Its probably anal but on the other hand I'm on the lookout for an old bottle of sperm whale oil to concoct some of the old forgotten lubes. Probably won't work any better than something new but its something to talk about at the range.
Anyone here from the old San Diego Scheutzen Guild shooting at Dulzura? There was a doctor shooter there at one time firing antique rifles that were worth more than my first home. Almost every one there was breechseating when I shot there.
Its a lot of fun to spend the morning shooting at a leisurely pace. 200 yard off hand with a full value wind was always fun - not that I was any good.
Sounds like a priceless experience and times never to be seen again. I have read about the old timers and their shooting. Those folks likely forgot more about how to shoot for accuracy than most of us will ever know.
If shooting fixed ammunition with the bullet indexed at seating in the case, then I think its of a benefit.Quote:
Originally Posted by M-Tecs
What feature do you index the bullet to? It's easy to find the thick side of the case or if its banana shaped finding the high side or low side is easy. What feature on a cast bullet are people indexing to?Quote:
Originally Posted by Shanghai Jack
No one place in particular. Pick a spot in the mold cavity and tap a sharp prick punch into it. It doesn't matter where the mark is or where the bullet is positioned in the throat - what does matter is that it be positioned consistently, the same position for each shot, and the punch mark facilitates that. Align the punch mark with a witness mark on the barrel breech or the bullet seater the same for each shot.Quote:
Originally Posted by M-Tecs
The punch mark hurts nothing, and in two cavity molds I'll position the punch mark at different spots in the cavities so I can tell which cavity the bullet comes from and segregate them accordingly - yet another bit of anal-ness that I feel, maybe, shaves another couple thousandths off of group sizes!
I have lots of molds that are marked primarily to indicate what cavities it dropped from. I own very few single cavity molds. Most are 4, 6, 8 or 10 cavity with a few 2 cavity. I have only done limited testing with a 45/70 BPCR rifles with zero accuracy improvement for indexing bullets. I have tested bullets with weight differences, visual voids and other flaws that had a noticeable decreasing in accuracy. Same for bad brass when the bullet is seated in the case. I haven't started play with breech seating bullets only.Quote:
Originally Posted by gnoahhh
Indexing the bullet to the case and the chamber doesn't hurt anything. On the flip side I don't understand how it benefits a "good" bullet? The only area I can see a possible benefit is if the bullet base is not perpendicular? For indexing to be a benefit there has to be a feature that is positioned the same every time.
Until I see actual evidence that bullet indexing makes a difference I am viewing it a nothing more than something that sounds good.
I got a breach seater like that one in a box of stuff at an auction recently. Looks like it's for a 25/20 SS but I'm not sure. I don't have a 25/20 SS so it will make a neat wall hanger.
[QUOTE=M-Tecs;5685930]
Indexing the bullet to the case and the chamber doesn't hurt anything. On the flip side I don't understand how it benefits a "good" bullet? The only area I can see a possible benefit is if the bullet base is not perpendicular? For indexing to be a benefit there has to be a feature that is positioned the same every time.
[/QUOTE
The term "good bullet " is perhaps the operative term here. I'm relatively sure that in the old days the tolerances
that were capable of being met in a mold were significantly worse than today (although I've seen some significantly out of round new molds as well) Breech seating and indexing would have ensured that the bullet was introduced to the bore identically each time with whatever idiosyncracies of the molded bullet in the same orientation each time. I recognize, like Ralph Waldo Emerson that a foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds. However sometimes its fun to succumb to the hobgoblin and act like you're back in the late 1800s early 1900s.
It simply eliminates one more variable. Successful bench shooting is all about eliminating variables , the minutiae as it were, not "what's your powder charge, and what bullet ya using?" Because bullet orientation is superfluous to one person doesn't mean it isn't to another.
And if you really want to get down to the nitty-gritty - Some of us shoot our bullets in the order cast. One of the old writers talked about this - Pope or someone else. Have to go look at my notes.
Sometimes what guys do is for mental peace of mind. It may not help accuracy, but if you do it it sure wont hurt accuracy. I once bought a huge lot of .45-70 Remington brass and every case had a notch in the rim at the same spot. I'm sure Remington didn't do it, and likely the previous owner didn't breech seat a .45-70, but he decided to eliminate any doubts by indexing every case.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockingkj
There are things that can't always be proven positively to help, but there are plenty of things that can be proven. If you're one of the best shooters around you're probably doing as much as possible to maintain consistency in loading and shooting, just to eliminate anything you can control.
Would you fire each case indexed several times to determine the best orientation to mark permanently for each one so that you could fire several to get a group?Quote:
Originally Posted by marlinman93
When I indexed cases I inspected them for straightness and concentricity. On the banana shaped 284 brass converted to 6.5x284 I put the high spot up. Necks were turned so the concentricity issues went away. If I didn't neck turn, I would have tried to have the thick neck down.Quote:
Originally Posted by ulav8r
Nah. In my breech seated single shot bench guns I start a virgin case oriented via a witness mark on the barrel tenon and a randomly located notch on the case rim, and put it there for every subsequent shot. If I shot fixed ammo then I would take the sort of precautions espoused by M-Tecs.Quote:
Originally Posted by ulav8r
No. Since the case is going to fire form to the chamber the very first firing, there's no advantage to checking it at several indexing points. If there's a change the case would form to each point when fired again.Quote:
Originally Posted by ulav8r
There's no sizing, or anything else done to the case once it's fired the first time. Just deprime and prime it, then charge and shoot. I'm personally not sure indexing changes accuracy, but it doesn't cost anything to do so, and gives peace of mind to many folks.
Not breech seating or cast but my experience with the 5,500 rounds of really bad Winchester 284 brass formed into 6.5/284 taught me that if the case walls are that uneven they don't expand or stretch evenly. At the time that was the only brass available. The more you fired them the more banana shaped they became. If available I only use Lapua brass for serious accuracy requirements like long range competition.
And that is why I don't share load data on public ranges.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shanghai Jack
Start talking about paper patching, animal fat greases, card and felt wads, greased felt wads and you lose them, start talking about drop tubes and especially compression plugs to pack black powder to uniform density and they flip.
Best just lie and say you order ammo from BACO at $90 a box so they quit asking questions.
Even at a long range match you can talk with many shooters and get a lot of different answers to what works best for BPCR shooting! And the most knowledgeable will usually preface their replies with, "Well this is what works for me".
There are so many different methods or techniques used shooting BP that there's no way to say only one is right, or works best. Not just the powder, and bullets, but also how it's loaded, and what you do between shots.
You can watch two very skilled shooters at the line, and both getting great groups, but doing things a little different.
I don't know anything about modern high pressure smokeless long range shooting, or the equipment or loads. But I bet one thing is the same for all kinds of shooting, and that's consistency. Those who are the most consistent with loads, equipment, components, and shooting practices will have the best chance of being great shooters.