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I haven't seen this rifle in person yet (next few days) but I'm looking for info on it, especially the scope. It's a Rock Island M1903 (don't have the serial number yet) with S.A.D.A.L. on it. Online, I found out that that stands for Springfield Armory Donald A Leary (inspector). I don't think it's been altered.
I've been reading about the low number receivers (under 300,000 for RIA I think).
Interesting.
Would like to know more.
I still haven't seen the rifle in person. That scope is intriguing. The owner's father passed away and left 130 guns behind. The family is trying to sell them off before taking them to a gun store. They just found a batch of shotguns and rifles, including the M1903. I bought an H&K 45 Compact that I'm sure was unfired, as most of the guns were.
I have never seen such a collection. Basically, all high end revolvers and pistols.
Low number 1903s: "To solve this problem, the Ordnance Department commenced double heat treatment of receivers and bolts. This was commenced at Springfield Armory at approximately serial number 800,000 and at Rock Island Arsenal at exactly serial number 285,507. All Springfields made after this change are commonly called “high number” rifles. Those Springfields made before this change are commonly called “low-number” rifles."
https://thecmp.org/sales-and-service...e-information/
376Steyr "beat me" vis posting low-serial number warning on early Rock Islands! That being said, I have two early Rock Island 1903 -- one each made in 1904 (s/n 11,xxx) and 1907 (118,xxx), and -- though not recently -- have fired a good many cartridges (my cast bullets in light-moderate "target" loads) through these with zero challenges. Imho, re old 1903s, these are "the best" :)! I, too, am intrigued by the telescopic sight affixed. If the rifle is affordable to your means/budget, my suggestion is to execute purchase a.s.a.p.!
Just as THOUGHT -- I can perhaps look up actual dates in my 1903 books downstairs -- if I correctly recall, Donald A Leary inspected from maybe 1920 at the earliest -- through the early 1930s. Paralleling this, I believe the "switch" to "safe" receiver/bolt steel occurred mid-1918. If I am correct (again, this is 99% thought rather than verifiable data!) the Rock Island you are looking at should be a safe-to-shoot one!
geo
I'm itching to see that scope. If it's an unaltered sniper rife and scope, it'll definitely be out of my price range.
One never knows.... My (late) friend Hughie and I went to a major city gun show, maybe 15 years back, and a dealer who obviously was not too familiar with M1 Carbine pricing had a few in his rack. All in fair condition, Hughie picked one up, and with his usual poker face actually got the dealer to drop almost $100.00 off its listed/tag price. Using his C&R FFL it was a quick transaction, after which Hughie really beat feet out to the parking lot, to lock it in his truck, stat. Not until maybe three hours later, as we began the three hour drive home, he inquired if I had questions vis the carbine. "Sort of" was the best I could come up. Turns out it was an Inland with a three-digit serial number which appeared to be "100%" correct!!! On the other hand, I (stupidly) paid up the whazoo for a Universal (Hialeah :() carbine. (I still lost money in a trade off, later, but at least I got rid of it!). Bottom line? Hey -- you may get lucky -- and I sincerely hope you do!Quote:
Originally Posted by Battis
geo
The problem is that I know the seller and I'm trying to help him sell off some of the guns. He has no interest in keeping the guns for himself, and he has no idea of their value. But, dammmn, what a collection. I told him that his late father was my hero (I never met his father).
I know the rifle isn't at this level, but...
https://www.rockislandauction.com/de...scope-equipped
george,Quote:
Originally Posted by georgerkahn
Excellent reply. Since you have a reference library on "Low" and "High" Number M1903s, I have a question: If the "Low" numbers were dangerous, were they pulled from active service at anytime during their service life?
I bought my first M1903 in 1961 for $25.00 and added many more since. I finally got a Mark 1 recently. I do not want to hijack this thread, but I never heard, or read, where U. S. Ordnance condemned any Low Numbers? Please educate me.
Be well.
Adam
I have a low serial number Rock Island Arsenal 1903.
It was the "deer rifle" of my great grandfather. He shot a lot of game with it using factory loaded ammunition. When I was younger and dumber than I am now I fired WW2 surplus ammunition through it. Now when I want to shoot it I use low pressure, low recoil cast bullet loads with 6 grains of bullseye that group nicely (a foot low). The load lets me ring gongs without feeling like I'm endangering my eyes or other body parts.
I examined the M1903. I think it's a real deal Marine sniper rifle. I contacted an auction house in Maine to see if they'll evaluate it.
Now, it looks like the scope might be a repro.
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/10...85/?pid=626728
Did CMP ever sell these rifles?
Pics:
Adam -- I wish I could, but the more I read and research, the "dumber" I seem to get. From, what I have read, which is indeed a minuscule fraction of what has been printed, some from knowledgeable researchers and some from those, say, without any such -- my feeble memory indicates no low-numbered arms were issued; but, those in service stayed in service. I have read "cop-outs" vis a shortage of firearms for the troops necessitating this. When I taught, I regularly would tell students I endeavored to be most careful, as after the first time I was "caught" disseminating bologna -- not a word which followed might have any credence. So -- the best answer is what my feeble memory recalls, as I typed herein. BUT -- note again my words are based upon memory -- not data.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Helmer
One of my early 1903s did in fact come from the CMP. I retired in 2010, and bought it a year-or-two-or-three before -- best I can do vis date. Mine is a RIA 1903 which was made in 1918, s/n 288,xxx. I looked up your s/n, and here are the results:Attachment 317680Quote:
Originally Posted by Battis
You have an awesome rifle... congats!!!
geo
I wish it were my rifle. I'm just doing some research for the family selling it. It looks like 11/28 on the barrel.
george,
Thanks for the reply. My grandad was in WW1 and carried the M1903. We chatted long ago and he was not too concerned with "Low Numbers." To his knowledge, no M1903 low number rifle was pulled off the line. He finally left France in March 1919.
Thanks again for your reply.
Adam
Go here and join. https://b34da70920f9-006155.vbulletin.net/ Fellow by the name of John Beard is an expert and likes to post comments about 1903's and A3's in the Bolt Action forums. I believe he still works at CMP. Unbelievable wealth of knowledge on them.
Isn't there a database you can pay into to find out where your 1903 was during it's military career?
No. That info is lost to the Four Winds, or it's buried so deep in a gov't warehouse that it would take a team of West Virginia coal miners five years to dig it out. A fair amount of info on individual rifles has been ferreted out by researchers, but that only amounts to a small percentage of total production.
USMC Sniper? Very very very slim chance of that. A few hundred were built in the early War years yet a few thousand exist today, if you catch my drift. The scope is definitely a modern replica. (And all it takes is a drill press/milling machine to d/t the scope holes and cut clearance in the handguard.)
This receiver is undoubtedly one of the thousands of leftover bare receivers sent from Rock island to Springfield Armory a few years after RI ceased building complete new rifles. Its serial number makes it one of the desirable nickel steel receivers. Springfield utilized them in the late 20's to build rifles on, without changing the name on the receiver ring, so this dated barrel could conceivably be its original barrel - but who knows for sure? (Barrels were swapped on-and-off of guns often and randomly when they were turned in for service during their active duty lives, not to mention the ungodly quantities of them sold as surplus after the war into the hands of gunsmiths and Bubbas everywhere who rebuilt/refurbished/restored rifles left-and-right.)
One question: does it have a little tiny star emblem stamped on the crown of the barrel? Looks kind of like a tick body with little legs poking out.
Nice pic.
Shiloh
I will check for that small star on the crown. I still don't have the rifle with me but I'll be getting it soon.
The current owner's grandfather fought in WW2. He brought back some Nazi souvenirs.
Not sure how the rifle ended up in the owner's father's collection.
I sent pics to an auction house in Maine of the 1903. They put what I think is a low value on the gun at auction.
I don't want to buy this rifle, the owner won't ship it, so, with that in mind, can I get a value on this forum without violating any rules?
Battis -- Two great gentleman, John Spangler (US Navy, retired :)) and Mark Wade, run a service where they sell tons of firearms, with their server as, Oldguns.net. You can type this in, or go directly to their site at https://oldguns.net/index.php.Quote:
Originally Posted by Battis
I've purchased lots of stuff -- including several firearms -- from them, and imho they give "new definition" to being straight shooters. The best of the best, always! My only regret always being I'm too poor to purchase more from them!
Amongst the many services they offer -- including manufacture date of most firearms simply by your typing in its serial number -- John has always been both an unbelievable good source of knowledge AND his sharing of it!
Perhaps you may check in with John? (Just by "luck" I've never conversed with Mr. Wade, albeit my guess is -- as a partner with John -- he is ever bit as great!)
Another friend is (are?) the Pucci's -- Anthony, and his son, Michael Anthony -- on Long Island, New York who run Orion7 Enterprises -- many years dealing with mostly U S military arms. GOOD people, and a good source, you may wish to ring Michael. Anthony -- who has also written many articles for the Garand Collectors magazine, is viewed by many as a world-leader of knowledge both on this firearm as well as those made by Johnson, the U S M1 Carbine, and, the 1903s. 1-631-205-1299
Good luck!
geo
Thanks. I sent them an email.
I sent John Spangler photos and info on the rifle. He responded very quickly with a detailed, in-depth evaluation of the rifle, including value. It is a well done replica of a sniper's rifle, but not super valuable. I passed the info to the owner and, now that he knows what it is, he's going to sell it locally.
Hats off to John Spangler. Very helpful and knowledgeable.
I DID suggest he is one of the very best of the best!!! I am most happy you took my suggestion to contact him and it is working out for you. Mr. Spangler is a ZERO-b.s. incredibly knowledgeable person who regularly goes well beyond the limits to help others. :) :) :) Maybe three years ago )?;)?) he announced he was retiring...Quote:
Originally Posted by Battis
geo