KNIL M95 Help

Well, I finally broke down and bought the M95 Dutch Männlicher that has been taunting me at a lgs for over a year. Turns out it’s a bit more of a project than it initially looked...because it’s was a KNIL rifle that spent most of its life in Indonesia. Attachment 315811Attachment 315812Attachment 315813Attachment 315814Attachment 315815

The previous owner had put a poly coat on the stock, which I probably would have left alone, except all those black areas I believe are mold & rot. Indeed, after stripping the finish and applying a couple of OxiClean treatments, much of the black has turned to gray and more of the wood color is appearing on the outside. I’m concerned for the internals though.
As shown in the photos, there are cracks running through the action area of the stock, likely from possible attempts at firing by the previous owner long ago (still traces of cosmoline or something on several parts, so I’m not sure they even tried to fire it). I can deal with that as I recently did similar repairs on a sporterized Carcano long rifle. My issue with this one is that on drilling holes for the application of AcraGlass and pins, all the removed wood turnings were either black, or came out as an almost mud substance.
Given I did wash the stock several times today, but how long do I let it dry before putting in the AcraGlas? I don’t think it’ll fit in my oven, but I might be able to apply hairdryer heat to help those bits dry up.

I have no idea if they are similar, but Liberty Tree Collectors has M95 Austrian Mannlicher stocks available. If those are the same (unlikely) they might be an option if your stock is too far gone. Also, though many Milsurp collectors consider it blasphemous, here's a good article on sporterizing M95 Mannlichers. (An interesting read with lots of information, even if you're not into that kind of thing)
https://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/...annlicher.html

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Originally Posted by 405grain

here's a good article on sporterizing M95 Mannlichers. (An interesting read with lots of information, even if you're not into that kind of thing)
https://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/...annlicher.html

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Thanks for sharing the link!

I came by several old military rifles over the years that had the black "stuff" in the stocks. The worst areas on a couple of them actually crumbled away like coffee grounds when I attempted to sand them. Staying with it, eventually I ended up with voids of missing wood. The choices seemed to be to fill the areas with stained AccraGlas or a replacement stock. The second choice not the best if the stock is serial numbered to the receiver. Here's a GEW 88 that had the black stuff around the butt plate. Obviously the stained epoxy could have been a bit darker for a better match, but I consoled myself with the facts that the problem won't get worse and the wood is sealed in at that point. I've sometimes wondered if when it appears over a larger, flat area an application of household bleach might help. Never tried it.

Attachment 315830


DG

Thanks for the input everyone, and while I’m not a fan of sporterization, it was useful to see what was done in that article. In the last week, I have given the stock several treatments of Oxiclean or Murphy’s (a few of each), patched the cracks (at least partially), and started the process of refinishing with boiled linseed oil. BLO always seems to make stock wood better, and less prone to cracking or crumbling, so I think I’ll just complete the finishing and go with that.
Next issue is the barrel, which after cleaning appears to have a shadow of its rifling remaining. Quite pitted. I’ll go ahead a put a few dozen rounds through it as is, just to see how it shoots, but any further recommendations for such a worn, pitted barrel? I’ll try to get a photo...

Ok after photographing, it doesn’t look that bad, but still, especially near the muzzle end it seems like the pattern is more a pattern of pits than a pattern of a groove. Thoughts?Attachment 316082

Took it to the range yesterday and had major keyholing/tumbling issues. Was using .263” 156gr PPU SP projectiles. Measuring the cases after firing, the inside mouth diameter expanded to .266-.268”. I have a couple Carcanos, should I try the .268 projectiles I have for that? Need to measure the bore first I suppose. Any other ideas to improve stability with the current projectiles?

Slugging the bore to pin down the actual diameter is the place to start. Seems to me that the measurement derived from the expanded mouths of fired cases tells you the chamber's diameter, but not necessarily that of the actual bore. The chamber would, logically, have to be a bit larger in diameter to allow the brass to expand and release the bullet. Without the bore measurements derived from slugging it, I'd hesitate to force a .005" larger jacketed bullet through it. This looks like a perfect castboolit job. You should be able to round up some cast bullets in the .266"-.268" range, with closer to .266" being preferable as a place to start; but because the Italian Carcano uses .268" diameter bullets there should be some of those available, perhaps from a member here. I'd think that a castboolit would fill the bore and give you what you're looking for, and .266" is .002" over the .263" bore it probably had when it was new. .002" oversize is where most cast boolit guys start when trying to fill up a used bore's diameter, and you can increase the size if needed.

DG

I have a keyholing Carcano too. Sounds like I joined the right group here, and my next investment should be in a slugging kit, some cast boolits, and then casting equipment to make my own once the size is determined.
Thanks for the advice!

Forum member Texas by God did a lengthy write up about his KNIL M95. His had a grossly eroded bore. I have one also. I bet the .268” projectiles will slip fit inside your fired cases. If so, I would load them and try them out. They may still wobble.

Sounds like the typical condition for these hard-life carbines. Unfortunately, in attempting to slug the bore last night, I managed to instead obstruct the bore. I need to get a thicker brass rod to tap out the obstructing fishing weight, and then I’ll try again. It’s all a learning process!

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Originally Posted by junkbug

Forum member Texas by God did a lengthy write up about his KNIL M95. His had a grossly eroded bore. I have one also. I bet the .268” projectiles will slip fit inside your fired cases. If so, I would load them and try them out. They may still wobble.

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Also, yes, the projectiles meant for my Carcanos do fit inside the fired case necks, just barely, without any resizing. Unfortunately the cases themselves now stick in the chamber, likely because there is an imperfection they are hitting now that they’ve been formed to the chamber. Still, a super-smooth bolt when it is empty. It’s all work I’m happy to do, once I learn an effective way of doing it.

Ahhh...the plot thickens. You'll have to ascertain the nature of the chamber imperfection. If it's a burr you can remove it using a long dowel with a slot in the end, some 400 grit wet or dry sandpaper, dipped in kerosene, run at a moderate speed in an electric hand drill for 30 seconds to one minute. If it's a gouge or bad rust pit there really is no way to fill it that I'm aware of and you'll have to re-barrel. If it's a gouge or pit you should be able to ascertain that by closely examining the fired brass as it should extrude a bit into the hole, and be noticeable on every piece of brass at about the same location. A burr might appear as a scratch. The possibility exists, though, that there is no imperfection as fired brass is sometimes sticky for other reasons such as fouling. No imperfections observed on the fired brass, a good chamber cleaning is the way to start.

DG

Thanks for the advice about the burr or gouge issue. I’m thinking it’s a burr, as I noticed an area was getting scratched on the fired cases upon re-chambering. If it doesn’t polish out as you suggest, sounds like a good reason to buy an inexpensive bore scope. I think it will though. I’ll report back once I’ve done this.

Ok, I managed to tap the “obstruction” through, and the barrel slugs at .2675” according to my micrometer. I think the .268”’s that I have will work....will see if they wobble still or not next time I take it out. Meanwhile, 30+ seconds of 400-grit attention didn’t quite work, but I was using a “dowel” a bit thinner than the bore. Will try with a thicker one as soon as I can obtain one. The cases are definitely showing a scratch in the same place when I cycle them through the chamber....
One thing I neglected though: no kerosene in the sandpaper process, only a bit of Hoppe’s #9 oil. What does the kerosene do in the process, and is there anything I might substitute for it? I can get some if I can’t substitute, but I try to use what I have before buying something additional.

There's nothing magical about kerosene. It used to be much less expensive than it is now, and was widely used for a variety of applications in gunsmithing, mostly in cleaning, cutting, and polishing as a fluid to mix with chips and grindings and carry them away. Or, in this operation, to make a slurry of the particles that fall off the sandpaper and whatever you're getting off the chamber walls. Hoppe's #9 used to be made up of about 80% kerosene, and I don't see why it wouldn't work. You want to pour enough in a container that you can dip the paper on the dowel into it and get it completely wet. You should also have a swab of some sort, can be a shotgun size cleaning patch and cleaning rod to swab the chamber with the Hoppe's before inserting and running the paper, and afterward to get it completely clean and remove any remaining grit. The 400 grit paper should be folded in half when inserting it in the slot in the dowel so that both sides are abrasive and being applied to the chamber's surface. As for the diameter of the dowel-- too thin and there won't be any backing to the paper against the chamber's surface, so it should be thick enough to give that resistance, largest size that will enter the chamber and still allow the paper to turn. A little less diameter wouldn't be critical. Scratches consistently located in the same place on the fired brass would indicate to me that a burr of some sort exists. Could it be being picked up on the way from the magazine to the chamber? Cycle a cartridge very slowly from the magazine to the chamber and see if you can feel or observe any resistance during the cycle.

DG

You can buy various liquid epoxy wood restorers for rotted wood in old houses ....it soaks into the decayed wood and hardens .........The Indonesian rifles had a hard time ,what with the climate ,being captured by the Japs ,re issued to native troops ,then with the Indonesian army ......incidentally,some were rebored to 303 ,and I had one that was smoothbore of approximately 303 .........some years ago ,they were so cheap that the carbines were $5 for a 5 gal paint bucket full..........there are basically two kinds .....original Steyr and Hembrug .....the Steyr ones seem to have a very high rate of small parts breakage,and cracking.

So back in the day, a story ended with “and then I found $5,” could have the addendum, “and I bought a bucket of KNIL M95 carbines,” right? Oh for those days to be here again.
A serious treatment with Acraglas for the cracks and a couple weeks of BLO treatments seem to have the stock intact and strong once more.
I’ll put #9 solvent in the mix next time I try to deburr the chamber. Hopefully that works to loosen the casings. .268 projectiles will hopefully have better stability. A local shop owner said he’d grab some original ammo he has at his warehouse as well, so I have something to compare my formed cases to. I appreciate all this help and support from the community here and elsewhere. It’s a great group to be a part of.

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Originally Posted by TheAbe

<snipped for brevity>
I’ll put #9 solvent in the mix next time I try to deburr the chamber.

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When using emory cloth or crocus cloth I use WD40.

Dutch

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Originally Posted by 405grain

I have no idea if they are similar, but Liberty Tree Collectors has M95 Austrian Mannlicher stocks available. If those are the same (unlikely) they might be an option if your stock is too far gone. Also, though many Milsurp collectors consider it blasphemous, here's a good article on sporterizing M95 Mannlichers. (An interesting read with lots of information, even if you're not into that kind of thing)
https://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/...annlicher.html

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His stock looks slightly different especially in the front nose band area.

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Originally Posted by junkbug

Forum member Texas by God did a lengthy write up about his KNIL M95. His had a grossly eroded bore. I have one also. I bet the .268” projectiles will slip fit inside your fired cases. If so, I would load them and try them out. They may still wobble.

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I’m sorry but that wasn’t me.
As far as military 6.5 rifles go, I’ve only had a few Swedish and one Japanese.


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My m95 infantry rifle shoots well with .268/9. The Carcano style so far anyway. The bore is good, or at least pretty good.
The bore measured .268 and these boolits slip snug in the neck of a fired case from my chamber. Light crimp, 10grs of Unique.

Sorry I got that wrong. Never had the greatest memory!

If the chamber is damaged, you’re not SOL. Barrels for those aren’t exactly growing on trees, but you could save the barrel you have. I’m a gunsmith, and I “set back” barrels fairly regularly.

It works like this: the barrel is screwed into the receiver. Obviously the barrel has to be timed so that the sights are at top dead center. So I face off enough for one full turn(typically about .062 or 1/16, but obviously varies based on the thread pitch) Then I run a chamber reamer into the chamber to machine it to proper depth again.

This little bit removes enough material that you basically have a brand new chamber, and throat. At the same time, you don’t lose any real amount of barrel length.

Now, trying to find someone who can do that might present a problem. But if you have a gunsmith in your area with a machine shop, he should be able to do it. Or if you’re in middle Tennesse, or can’t find anyone else, I can help you.

Anyway, if it’s not so serious as to be causing functional problems (like difficult extraction) I wouldn’t worry about it.

I finally had the opportunity to get to a store that sells wood dowels today and got both 7/16” and 3/8” dowel lengths. The 7/16” ended up being a bit too tight, but I was able to use a section of the 3/8” dowel with a drill, some 400-grit sand paper, and some cleaner to polish the assumed chamber imperfection. With the bolt again installed, I cycled through a few of the fired cases I have, and while the extraction was still difficult initially, it was noticeably improved, and after 4 (different) cases, was almost completely gone. I’ll clean the chamber more thoroughly another night, but with the .267” slugged bore and the polishing of the burr, I believe the next trip to the range with my KNIL will be significantly improved over the first one.

This story sort of saw its continuation under the “improving old barrels” post, but I should update here as well. Second round of testing took place in October, and did not really have any better results, except that the extraction issue has been corrected by removal of the burr. Still have issues forming brass properly as necking down .303 to 6.5 leaves a thick neck with too little diameter for a bullet. I need a case reamer.
Also, I attempted a chamber cast a few weeks ago with disastrous results. I could not pound out the casting and about drove the barrel and receiver through a 2x4 hammering a (padded) steel rod into the casting material to try and knock it out. Ended up having to torch the exterior of the barrel gently until all the cerrosafe melted out. I don’t know what’s going on except perhaps a big pit or something else catching. Anyway, that was a failure. It’s looking like I need a re-chamber to a wider bore to get better quality rifling. I’m thinking keep the x53R chamber but increase the bore diameter to .277 or .283? Thoughts?

Some of the old time gunsmith books described methods of enlarging bores and rifling,but they entailed lots of work and a good deal of mechanical knowledge........I very much doubt a rebore would clean up at 277 ,284 might be OK..............However ,since the gunsmith who does the rebore is the boss,Id think 30 cal would be the most practical............The KNIL guns often have deep pits in the exterior of the barrel.

Incidentally,for the home experimenter ,one practical barrel for these guns is the large ring 98..........the 98 thread is 1.1"x 12 ,the Mannlicher is 1.0625"x12 ............so by using a thread chaser ,its quite easy to reduce the thread to fit.............the face of the breech is somewht different though,as the Mannlicher needs cuts for the extractor and ejector.

The Indonesians themselves bored out many to .303 Then the rifle will accept standard .303 British ammo. For some reason they labeled their conversions “7.7” (millimeters). Still see a few for sale once in a while.

Alternately, I think this might be a good opportunity (along with my Krag and my long Carcano) to begin experimenting with paper-patched cartridges. Anyone load a Dutch M95 with paper-patched bullets in 6.5x53R?

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Originally Posted by junkbug

The Indonesians themselves bored out many to .303 Then the rifle will accept standard .303 British ammo. For some reason they labeled their conversions “7.7” (millimeters). Still see a few for sale once in a while.

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The Lithgow factory in Australia converted 600 Dutch Mannlichers to .303 for the NEI government (ref. Skennerton), presumably to simplify logistics in the face of the Japanese advance. Unfortunately the ship taking them back to the Indies was sunk by the Japanese, so those rifles would be badly salt affected by now.

Bottom of the ocean? They might be in better condition than most of the KNIL carbines currently on the market!

Also, going over this thread I realized that I haven't posted photos since I re-finished and patched the cracks in the stock. Not as shiny, but a more honest finish with the wood in better health, and none of the cracks have opened up (nor new ones formed) with 35 rounds through it so far. So here, with a used sling I was given by a lgs owner. I think he took pity on me for trying to get this one shooting again:

Attachment 325602
Attachment 325603

I enjoy shooting my Dutch Rifles and carbine. The bores in my two as posted here are .266/7. The carbine bore is in very good condition. The rifles bore is sharp but dark. They both shoot well with the .268 FLAT base bullets. I've tried the .264 140-60 grain RNFB bullets with poor results. My close targets are 200 meters.
Many going to the Dutch colonies were converted to .303. They also shoot very well.

This is an informative thread. Enjoyed learning.