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This might sound dumb, but when you roll a paper cartridge, how do you get lube on the bullet/ball. I normally use a prelubed wad when loading, but wouldn't that contaminate the powder in a cartridge, over time? Also, there isn't that much room in a paper cartridge.
Suggestions are appreciated.
Are you talking about combustible revolver cartridges? Those historically had the bullet dipped in lube.
In my ROA I use a 1/8" felt wad soaked in Emmerts with a thin card wad on the bottom over the powder then a round ball pushed on the felt wad. No lube on the ball after seating.
Revolver and Sharps paper cartridges had the bullet hand dipped up to the paper line one or more times before being placed on a cooling rack in preparation for packaging.
Old Ordnance lists show the cost estimates for assembly and dip lubing.
I don't know if round ball cartridges were lubed.
I highly recommend the Johnston and Dow molds from Era's Gone. You might find your rammer is only round ball correct but a quick drill to create a cavity for the pointed nose to rest in works just peachy.
Dipped afterwards? I have to put glue on the ball to stick in the top of the cartridge, so I could , as also mentioned, dip it in lube after the glue sets? The cardboard over the powder might work, too. Thank you for the ideas - I like these paper cartridges for range/potential hunting/field use.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thundermaker
You should be fine dipping them after. The lube is going to harden long before it soaks through the paper.
David - I don't roll cartridges but the dip lubing should work just fine as that's how they were originally done. In the AZ heat, if it gets too messy, you could leave them un-lubed and once seated, keep a tin of lube and finger smear a small quantity over the chamber mouth.
I load 38 Colt Short and Long "heeled" cartridges for my Navies with conversion cylinders - heeled rounds are externally lubed. Once loaded, I dip lube the bullet down to the casing. I have always used beeswax/crisco for lube. I just melt it in a small container, dip and set in a loading block - it works slick.
Out in AZ, I have to make the lube stiffer with more beeswax because of the heat than I do here in Michigan. It doesn't;t take a great abundance of lube to keep the fouling soft - a little experimenting will show you how much is enough. On my heeled cartridges, after I dip lube them, I wipe the bullet with a quick twisting motion with a rag as the slug has a lube groove. Too much lube on them can cause an issue as far as sliding them into the cylinder. On a paper cartridge, I think I would just dip lube th bullet and set aside to harden. When you seat them in the chamber, any excess lube on the circumference on the slug will be deposited in the chamber mouth and end up in the bore to keep fouling soft.
Another +1 to the various Eras Gone molds for original boolit designs. I have the 36 and 44 molds as well as the original Smith Carbine style mold - all fun to play with.
Good luck - always enjoy your posts and seeing what works for you!
Jim
Nice, thank you, will try dipping this weekend!
75% Bees Wax 25% olive oil summer ratio ..dip past the largest diameter point where the paper catches the bullet all the way down to the imaginary bottom of the bullet/ball against the powder ..it will not affect the powderQuote:
Originally Posted by armoredman
Winter mix 50/50
I build way ahead and store them in sealed clear plastic tubes caliber appropriate
Enjoy
Bear
I have some beeswax, courtesy of LAGS, and olive oil...weekend project coming up!
Sorry, guys, life intervened, just got to it. Does this look right? IIRC the wax is 90+% beeswax and olive oil.
https://i.imgur.com/FbT2gS4.jpg
That’s how mine turn out.
I showed my wife and asked he, "Do these look vaguely obscene?" She said yes... :)
You need to make up some for your Rifles.
Well if you want to really take it to the next level.......
Look up Driese or Chessipot needle fire paper cartridges and adapt that technique.
It's literally a paper patched ball hooked to a paper powder container. In the original the cartridge was in a silk sack that was tied to the bullet and carried the paper ash and cap remains out of the barrel and release with the remaining ball patch. The paper patch and silk sock scrub the bore each time they are fired allowing many rounds to be fired w/o cleaning. Applied to a muzzleloader they would clean both ways .
First those are some fine looking cartridges ..better than mine for sure!
Curious about your bottom paper looking very heavy ..possibly just the pictures ..but hair roller papers from a beauty supply house are just peachy in allowing cap flame to the powder ..you might make sure to take a nipple pick with you just in case you need to prick the bottoms of the cartridge after inserting them ..I know a lot of guys do that but I've never had hang fires or no fires with hair roller papers ..
Bear
The bottom rounds are left over from the Guns Of The west paper cartridge kit, made out of cigarette paper. The rest of the paper is TrueWave end papers - I don't have a punch to make rounds, so I'll use them up. They've worked just fine in the past, so I think they will work until I run out.
Thank you for the fine words - looks are one thing, but I hope they work OK. These are going to be used in my New Model Army pretty much exclusively. Charge is 30 grains of Olde Eynsford, and that might be a wee bit stout for my brasser 1851. :)
OK, so, the wife unit woke up early, which woke me up early, and she said, hey, let's go shooting. Figure out why I married her? :bigsmyl2:
So I grabbed the New Model Army and the paper cartridges and off we went. This pic is after firing 6 caps only, home made ones, which is why the weird residue.
https://i.imgur.com/2PcXNHz.jpg
Loading up...
https://i.imgur.com/4K7OCwQ.jpg
The fronts of the wax fell right off, only stuff that stayed on was the back of the ball and immediately on the sides, which, of course, was scraped off during loading. Made a bit of a mess. You can see wax fragments everywhere. I also added a little Bore Butter on the cylinder pin, because the last time it started grinding shut after only six rounds.
https://i.imgur.com/HKTeuj3.jpg
Not TOO bad at 11 yards...
https://i.imgur.com/Mt9lwVi.jpg
That's a little more on target.
https://i.imgur.com/VyUP3L3.jpg
No, you're not seeing things - the cap fell off the sixth round, and I thought I had fired all of them. I was distracted by a young lady who decided it would be fun to film the guy with the hand cannon. My bad. However, when I discovered error, a new cap, and the ball went down range. All paper cartridges did fire, and like I suspected, the only residue was from the cigarette paper - the end papers were consumed completely. Fouling wasn't TOO bad.
https://i.imgur.com/nNzJYEF.jpg
Some hot soapy water and a brush, some elbow grease and she is put back away, nice and clean ready for the next time. I think I will try what was suggested and fold over long ends on the end papers instead of gluing a separate end paper on. All in all, not as accurate as that one group, but still on target, and just plain fun to shoot.
So the home made primers worked.
Combined with your paper cartridges shows that home made stuff is well worth doing.
That primer Residue comes off very easy.
It may look like rust.
But it doesn't etch the metal right away.
But like all other things using BP or the Subs need cleaning the same day you shoot them.
Oh yeah, she's clean as a whistle now! Cleanup with black is easy and fast.
The first time I used my homemade primers I was horrified at the residue they left on my rifle. I was relieved to learn that it came right off with cleaning.
To clarify the bees wax to Olive oil ratio ..it is by weight ..like 7.5 oz of bees wax and 2.5 oz of olive oil ..I realized I failed to clarify that ..the proper ratio to your ambient temperature should not have the "cap of wax/lube" popping off at loading ..so you need just a touch more of olive oil ..you need that lube in front of the bullet AND also the lube down to the powder that seating does not shear off ... that way you have lube working for you on both side of the bullet/ball
Bear
No pictures this time, but last night on a whim I made up 7 paper cartridges with the fold over method, using just the TrueWave End Papers. It was a wee bit faster, sloppier looking, but worked. I upped the Olive Oil in the beeswax considerably, but when I loaded the cartridges, the wax again cracked right off, mostly. I did get SOME in front of the ball, but not much. So, think I need maybe to add more. The mess was still epic, but everything went where it was supposed to go. Only problem was the caps - Winchester Magnum #11s, that the New Model Army would fail about half the time to set them off. Weird.
That mess is understandable and expected … at least on my home roll cartridges. No matter as I always take a rag with and wipe off my revolver between loadings