Lee 12ga slug loading

Long time rifle/handgun cartridge reloader for decades, both black and white powders. I have a Henry 12ga single shot and find it a bit hard to find good slug load data. I've got a Lee drive-key 7/8oz mold coming and already have Magtech brass hulls that I've primed with Federal LP primers. I also have BPI L078 plastic cushion wads (which I'm told work well with the lee 7/8oz slug) and WST powder. Intent of this shotgun is for both plinking and hog hunting.

Is it best to just load the shell with powder, the wad with slug, and an over-shot card to retain the wad/slug? I would use glue or wax to retain the the load - I don't want to crimp the brass.

Will the wad protect the bore from slug leading?

If I loaded the brass with real black powder, and used Circle Fly wads instead of a plastic wad, and I powder coated the slug, would that eliminate (or reduce) bore leading?

And lastly, I have cylinder, improved cylinder, and rifled chokes for the Henry - could I slug test all of them for accuracy to 50 yards?

Much obliged.

I can answer all the questions from direct experience but I can take an educated guess on the ones I don't have experience with.

First, I have not used brass hulls but I know they have thinner walls than plastic or paper hulls so wad fit may be an issue. Typically I read that card wads should be 1 gauge larger than the bore of the gun due to the thin brass. I would suggest that you use an over powder wad of 11 ga. which is available at BPI then your trap wad with slug in it. Even at that the slug/trap wad will likely be a rattle fit in the brass hull.

Yes, the trap wad will protect the bore from leading.

You will not get any sort or accuracy at all if you load the slug naked, powder coated or not. The lee slugs run around 0.680"/0.685" so will not center in the bore without a wad which is effectively a sabot. A bore diameter slug could be powder coated and loaded over a card/fiber wad column. Finding a mould to make bore diameter slugs is the issue there. I don't think there are any commercial bore diameter slug moulds available and don't buy a Lyman Foster slug mould because they cast well undersize (mine casts at 0.705") so do not center in the bore either. They are too small maked and too large to put in shotcups. Why you ask... I have no idea! Rapine used to make some nice bore size slug moulds that were bore diameter. Brooks made some nice moulds for a former member here turbo 1889. You might do a search for his posts, he posted lots of good info and reports on his bore diameter slugs.

A source of bore diameter slugs are Russian outfits if you want to deal with Russians right now. Svaroghunt and AS-Molds both produce a variety of bore diameter and wad slugs for common gauges. From what I have read AS-Molds are better quality but both make good slugs. Blood Trail has posted a lot on some of his bore diameter Russian slugs and has had good success with them.

Another option that may work well in brass hulls are round balls. I have shot several sizes of round balls from 0.662" cloth patched into trap wads in hulls to 0.735" RB's naked over a hard card wad column. As long as the round ball is centered accuracy to at least 50 yards can be very good. My best loads run 3" to 4" at 50 yards which is better than most slugs and that is from smoothbore. A 0.735" RB may be a good fit in a brass hull, I don't know for sure. The ball is a bit large for the no,inal bore diameter but there is not much meat at the equator and they swage down easily. I have had no pressure issues using 0.735" RB's. They weigh about 1 3/8 oz. so are heavy.

Yes, you should try different choke tubes. Some guns seem to perform better with I/C than cylinder bore and rifled choke tube may or may not improve accuracy. I'd think if slug/wad fit is good the rifled choke tube should improve accuracy. Wad slugs would have to be a good tight fit to bore for the rifling to work though. 0.735" RB work well through rifled barrels and reports vary with rifled choke tubes but certainly worth trying.

Some people report very good accuracy with Lee slugs in wads from smoothbore. The accuracy I have gooten so far with both Lee 7/8 oz. and Lee 1 oz. is mediocre so far. I have had better accuracy with bore diameter slugs and round balls. I have made an improvement (I think) to Lee slugs by adding a tailwad Brenneke style but that is a different story and requires mould modification and/or some extra form work and casting tailwads.

I recommend using plastic hulls to begin with since that is what all the load data you will find is based on. Lee has published recommended loads and components for both weights of slugs and BPI Load of the Week archives has several load recipes for Lee slugs. If you start with that and find a good load that your gun likes then reproduce that in the brass hulls and see how it works. Be warned though that smokeless load data is scace for brass hulls.

Using BP is safe and easy but I'd recommend bore diameter slugs or balls and a lubed wad under the payload.

My opinion if you want to use brass hulls is to get a Lyman 0.735" RB mould. If you want to test out RB's first, Track of the Wolf sells soft lead 0.735" RB's so you could order some to try without committing to a $100 plus mould. I generally cast my round balls out of wheel weights or range scrap.

Also, a warning, loading shotshells is not the same as loading for metallic cartridge and there are no obvious pressure signs before you are into dangerous pressures! Use published or pressure tested load data. There are lots of published recipes for Lee slugs and if you use a different slug or RB you can use same payload weight for birdshot or slugs in plastic hulls. Another issue is that you should never replace a trap wad with cushion leg with a hard card wad column or another trap wad with a shorter/stiffer cushion leg because pressure will go up!

Also, do not just take a load recipe for plastic hulls and put it in the brass hull. I suspect that due to larger volume pressure will be lower but that is a guess on my part. Seemingly small changes to a shotshell load recipe can result in very large pressure changes.

Hopefully someone with hands on experience loading brass hulls will chime in but I keep my eyes open and have as yet to find much info on brass hulls and smokeless load data.

Play but play safe!

Longbow

That was a heap o' typing, longbow, and very much appreciated.

How 'bout wrapping a Lee key-drive 7/8oz slug with lubed cloth patch ala muzzleloader, as a pseduo PPB so it will become a bore rider, then load it into a brass Magtech case ... with 65 grains or so of Swiss 2F or 3F, an over-powder 1/8" nitro wad and 1/2" fiber wad, insert the PPB, then a card wad over the PPB and glue it into the case? Test with chokes - cylinder, IC, and rifle.

Pure lead Lee slugs expand on firing, using "Lee data." Plastic hulls work. The BPI L078 wad should add to accuracy?
No petal to break off, like other shot wads.

No leading, just plastic needing removed from barrel.

I have thought about but not tried making paper "shotcups" by wrapping paper tubes likely with a bit of glue then slitting them part way. The idea was the same as yours to make a paper sabot effectively. There is no reason I can think of that it wouldn't work.

I have paper patched my Lyman Foster slugs (cast at 0.705") using heavy paper and that worked. I have also used paper tubes with 0.690" RB's though that didn't work well for me.

In my opinion the Lee slugs are too small in diameter to slug up and fill the 0.729" bore so should be loaded into shotcups or paper tubes. You could try cloth patching but with the slugs at around 0.685" you will need a heavy patch like denim. I have tried patching 0.715" RB's with 0.011" cotton and they are a good fit to bore and I tried 0.690" RB's with two layers and that gave a good fit as well. I have not shot any of the patched balls though so no actual range experiece there. I have read posts by others who claim patched balls work from shotgun hulls. I would have thought that the patch would strip off during the jump through the forcing cone but possibly there is enough gas leakage that it holds the patch in place. In any case, it is easy to try. I suspect the Lee slug will be a bit awkward to patch compared to a round ball but it is easy to try and nothinng lost but a bit of time and powder if it doesn't work.

Another issue with the brass hulls is that thin wall. To get a patched slug fitting the hull makes it large for the bore so how will the patch behave? No idea.

I'd say 65 grs. is a light load especially under a 7/8 oz. slug but BP will go boom regardless. I'd go with a heavier charge of 80 to 100 grs. Also, comtrary to what is normally stated about BP granulation and bore diameter I found that FFFg gave me better results in both cartridge and muzzleloading 12 ga. than Fg or FFg.

There is a lot of BP load data for shotguns on the internet. This may help if you haven't seen it:

http://www.tbullock.com/bpsg.html

Again, if you are new to shotshell and especially slug loading I suggest using published data and components then experiment from there with wads, patches, paper tubes or whatever. With BP I wouldn't worry about any subs with same payload and powder charge as is known safe. With smokelss powder you have to be careful or you can run into serious trouble with seemingly small changes of components.

I will say that I tried using plastic wasa over BP with 0.690" RB's many years ago and wound up with nasty hard BP fouling and plastic coating the bore. It was miserable to get out due to the plastic. I am not sure if the wads were melting or if they were just shredding on the hard BP fouling but whatever, it was a mess! Others have posted good result susing plastic wads over BP but not me!

Also, while you are getting and want to use your Lee mould, I think you may well be better off using 0.735" RB's over hard card wads for both BP and smokeless in those brass hulls. Just know that a pure lead 0.735" RB weighs about 580 grs. or about 1 3/8 oz. so load accordingly if you go that route.

Longbow

The .735 ball will still be loose in a Magtech shell unless the case is crimped by a roll or by a sunburst pattern using the sharp edge of something, and with the latter the case is kind of ruined thereafter. Probably best to have it sitting and centered on some form of donut wad underneath. Longbow explains all of this far better than I can. I use the Magtech only for shotshells now. I'm in the process of converting .50 BMG brass to 12-bore with a much simpler method than a lathe, using hand tools. If I get it perfected I'll post them.

I agree with Longbow. The plastic Hulls are an easier alternative. Sure the brass ones look cool but getting them to perform is not easy. You almost have to have a full bore slug loaded in them with a Mylar wrap to center the slug in the case.

The easier way to go which will deliver excellent results is to use an AA hull or similar, and simply load a Lee Slug into a Standard Trap Wad (WAA12 or clone) with a Standard Trap Load (18-20 gr of Green Dot or whatever is close) and fold crimp it shut.

If you buy the BPI Slug Loading Book (must have data) it gives you many different loads for both the 7/8 and 1 oz. Lee Slugs.

What I have been finding is that my Lee Slugs (1 oz.) loaded in my normal Trap Loads perform really well when shot thru a "Rifled Choke Tube." If your gun has changeable choke tubes then a Rifled one is available from Carlson's Choke Tubes off Amazon for $50-60.

Randy

I appreciate everyone's comments, thank y'all very much.

Yes, I have a rifle choke for the Henry.

Not reloading to save money, nor interested in trap or skeet or any such clay target shooting - if I was, I'd never want to reload shells. I already make my own black with a relatively dry process and a 20ton press - not stove top wet. I also load BPCR .45-70 fireformed brass with my cast PPBs for long range target. Been to that rodeo for decades, along with white powder long range bolt and AR15 rifles. Getting somewhat into shotgun loading for the experience, though I surely don't hafta and would save a ton of buck$ if I'd use commercial shells (which I currently have about 550 stocked up). I have a 12ga semi-auto with 00 & #4 buck for HD, and the Henry 12ga single that I want to see what smoothbore slug loads can do (though I do have a rifle choke to try out as well). Deep into flintlock long guns as well. That's about it.

For the s/s Henry, I'm going to slug test out loading some LP primed Magtech shells with black, CF nitro over powder card, CF cushion wad, hi-tek coated .690 ball and Lee 7/8oz slug, CF over shot card glued in. I might test out lubed cloth patching as well. Fire these loads through chokes - cylinder, IC, rifle.

For the semi-auto, as to pellet loads, they'll be done in mostly in 00 & #4 buck that I cast up and those will get hi-tek coated as well. I have thousands of plastic wads in several flavors and the only acceptable shotgun white powder I have is WST that's also used for .45ACP loads, it'll just hafta do at least for now.

Some would say I'm just dumping a lotta $$$$ down a deep rabbit hole ... and they're probably right. :cool:

Thanx again.

Hello from Germany,
do you know this Video: https://www.thereloadersnetwork.com/...h-12ga-shells/
the trick is the crimp, without crimp smokeless powder will not work well;
Attachment 312593
with this unusual tool it works

8x33, I can't find the video, but I'm interested in the brass caps in the picture and how they may be used as a tool.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FrankJD

That was a heap o' typing, longbow, and very much appreciated.

How 'bout wrapping a Lee key-drive 7/8oz slug with lubed cloth patch ala muzzleloader, as a pseduo PPB so it will become a bore rider, then load it into a brass Magtech case ... with 65 grains or so of Swiss 2F or 3F, an over-powder 1/8" nitro wad and 1/2" fiber wad, insert the PPB, then a card wad over the PPB and glue it into the case? Test with chokes - cylinder, IC, and rifle.

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Lee slugs pretty much are made to fit inside a shot wad.. they run best when done like this. A wrapped patch may do interesting things post muzzle.

If you're looking for an easy way there are several posts that use cheap commercial shotshells where the shot is removed and replaced with a Lee slug. Years back the winchester 12 ga shotshells were so inexpensive you could make your own slugs using them cheaper than gathering components.

I found the video. The brass nut is a 5/8" Flare Nut Cap that he uses to form the roll crimp over the slugs.

I'm gonna have to try it, just out of curiosity. I've always enjoyed finding things like this that can be used for purposes other than what they are meant for.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lar45

I found the video. The brass nut is a 5/8" Flare Nut Cap that he uses to form the roll crimp over the slugs.

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can you provide a link to the video

https://www.thereloadersnetwork.com/...h-12ga-shells/

https://www.thereloadersnetwork.com/...and-3-powders/

https://www.thereloadersnetwork.com/...t-ive-learned/


In the first video he says that he won't list the powder charge, but in the second video he has the powder charges written on the sides of the brass cases.
He does not show velocities or a target for accuracy, just function check in his 870 is all.

There is no way I'm going to crimp a brass case mouth, not needed for a single barrel shotgun, glue in an over-powder card or the like.

He's using a plastic wad cup to hold the 1oz drive-key slug which means smokeless only, not for black powder unless you don't mind plastic fouling.

I wouldn't load smokeless in the Magtechs as they are balloon head and for black, but I may see if this works to hold a .740 ball over black by crimping around the equator. The roll shown looks exactly like the rolls that were on the Remington commemorative shells I bought back around 1990 or so, just a slight roll over card. It does help in my doubles, as I've had the card fall out even when glued and the shot spill out, but I just use Elmers glue and that may be the reason. In a single barrel not a problem of course. The cases would have to be annealed periodically though, or cracks are probably going to develop. I'll probably just try it with the ball...
Edit: I had skipped the part where he said he had added a base wad in the brass...so ok, smokeless...

I'm only loading brass shotshells with holy black, not smokeless.

Only interested in loading those shells with either a ball or slug, and to me that means fiber wads and perhaps lubed cloth ball wrap.

Yup, for me, thinking 5 drams holy black, then over powder card, fiber cushion wad, thinner lubed wad of some sort- possibly donut (Track used to sell the lubed wads but I don't see them anymore), naked ball, and roll crimp around equator. Something along these lines, but will see when I get to it, it's gonna be a while before I get to the hardware store....

NO brass mouth roll crimp - not needed with a single shot.

I'm gonna see how coating the Lee .690 ball works with three chokes - cylinder, IC, rifle - using some with powder coating and some with the new hi-tek coating, to help with bbl leading.

bump for turtle to see

I think you will want a tighter choke than I/C to get accuracy from a 0.690" RB. Even powder coated it will be very much undersize if shot naked. A rifled choke tube won't work with an undersize ball.

I never had any leading at all using the 0.690" RB naked as it is a rattle fit to bore. Accuracy is non existent though at least in cylinder bore to modified choke. That is with a hard card wad column and naked ball.

If you are planning on using a trap wad then you don't need to powder coat the ball as the trap wad will protect the bore from lead but I wouldn't shoot that combination through anything tighter than I/C choke. If the wad/ball is a snug-tight fit to bore the rifled choke tube might work.

Longbow