32 S&W testing

I am making my own powder and decided to use my S&W 1 1/2 for testing.

I was looking around for data on what was normal for this cartridge so I would know how my powder compares to historical norms. Well, I did not find much trustworthy data.

One reference said it was loaded with 9 gr. of black powder and another said 4 grains. The source that said 4 grains said the velocity should be 550 fps.

The Lyman handbooks list a factory duplication load at 528 fps.

Other sources have factory ammo at more like 700 fps.

My testing with 6 grains of GOEX 3f black powder produced 455 fps and my homemade powder produced 395 fps. 6 grains of 3f black powder are all that I can squeeze into the case.

Not satisfied with that jumble of data I decided to dig into my stash of factory ammo and test some. One round of modern R-P head stamped ammo clocked 638 fps.

I tried three rounds of antique ammo that I expected was loaded with black powder, but they were all duds. I broke them down, weighed the powder and bullets, replaced the primers and reloaded them with the original powder.

First was a WRA round, the powder was compacted and hard to remove, I got 5 gr. of powder out of the case and the bullet weighed 84 gr. Reloaded it clocked 428 fps.

Second was a Peters round, the powder was compacted too and hard to remove, I got 5 gr. of powder out of the case and the bullet weighed 84 gr. Reloaded it clocked 508 fps.

Third was a Rem UMC round, the powder was only half compacted near the head the rest just fell out, I got 6 gr. of powder out of the case and the bullet weighed 88 gr. Reloaded it clocked 590 fps.

Does anyone else reload 32 S&W with black powder or have any other data to share.

Tim

Nope...Unique

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Originally Posted by racepres

Nope...Unique

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All of my handloads for the 32 S&W before I tried this black powder experiment were with Red Dot, if you trust Lyman, Unique is a good choice if you are loading hottish but Red Dot is best if you stick with starting loads like they recommend for top break revolvers.

Tim

I wonder if the sources listing 9 grains and 700fps were actually referring to 32 s&w long. That would make sense.

It's always amusing to me to look at the puny little cartridges that were considered adequate for self-defense in that era. I saw an original flier for the S&W tip-up in .22 short that said, "fires with as much force as any defensive arm."

newest date on my H&A 32 is 1886 and .9gr HP-38 seem to work quite well. I dont have a chrono to tell you what the fps is but at 6ft the boolits from my pre-310 tool mold ventilate 1/2" cdx plywood. mind you i do have a set of lee dies for 32S&W short and the data with them says 1 - 1.1gr HP-38.

I pressure tested three rounds WRA 32 S&W which had 7 gr of what appeared to be very compressed 4fg BP. The psi of the 3 rounds tested averaged a very consistent 10,800 psi. Velocity with the 88 gr LRN bullets out of the 10" test barrel ran 725 fps.

One round of UMC 32 S&W with 6 gr pf BP under a 98 gr LRN bullet ran 14,200 psi.

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Originally Posted by dtknowles

All of my handloads for the 32 S&W before I tried this black powder experiment were with Red Dot, if you trust Lyman, Unique is a good choice if you are loading hottish but Red Dot is best if you stick with starting loads like they recommend for top break revolvers.

Tim

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My personal experience with the 32S&W shows Red Dot loads chronographing faster than my Unique load... so I suspect they may be part of the Criteria, for "best" powder.. If FPS is an indicator of Pressure, I will stick to my Unique loads at 600 fps.. tho sr7625 with same charge is at 520 fps, so lower yet.. the 1.5 Red Dot load, May Not have been Chronoed.. I simply kept the note, "No...Too Hot".. All of the above leading me to believe that Black Powder will probably exceed My 600 fps.. if granulation is such that you can get it in that tiny Case! Me thinks 600 fps out of a 93 grain projectile, is all I will ask...

BTW Red Dot is better than excellent, IMO with 32S&W Long

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Originally Posted by Larry Gibson

I pressure tested three rounds WRA 32 S&W which had 7 gr of what appeared to be very compressed 4fg BP. The psi of the 3 rounds tested averaged a very consistent 10,800 psi. Velocity with the 88 gr LRN bullets out of the 10" test barrel ran 725 fps.

One round of UMC 32 S&W with 6 gr pf BP under a 98 gr LRN bullet ran 14,200 psi.

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Thanks Larry. I love having more data. 10" barrel? 32 S&W with a 10" barrel.

Tim

A Contender 32 H&R barrel is used for pressure testing with the Oehler M43 PBL. It also is a chronograph and corrects screened velocity to muzzle velocity.

Another vote for Red Dot in the .32sw long.
I use the same load and cast boolit in the .32acp.

A general caution. Those break open 32 and 38 caliber revolvers made in the 19th century will generally not stand up to loads with smokeless powers and often the frame will stretch even with modern factory ammo. Mike V, as duelist1954 on youtube has discussed this topic in at least one of his videos. Many made in the early 20th century had better steel and will take factory equivalent loads of smokeless.
Wiser to load them with black power of the proper grain size.

Here is some data from the day. From an undated du Pont blackpowder pamphlet that also mentions the company makes smokeless and semi-smokeless powders. I think the cartridge cases with the old folded heads and probably thinner brass will hold more volume than you will get into modern brass.
32 S&W and S&W Long are at lower right hand corner.
Attachment 310737

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Originally Posted by Larry Gibson

A Contender 32 H&R barrel is used for pressure testing with the Oehler M43 PBL. It also is a chronograph and corrects screened velocity to muzzle velocity.

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ok, I get it now. That does bring into question the velocity and pressures. What amounts to a large freebore and a long barrel will lower pressures and raise velocities vs. a 3.5" barrel revolver but still useful data when understood within its limitations.

Thanks again Larry.

Tim

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Originally Posted by barnetmill

A general caution. Those break open 32 and 38 caliber revolvers made in the 19th century will generally not stand up to loads with smokeless powers and often the frame will stretch even with modern factory ammo. Mike V, as duelist1954 on youtube has discussed this topic in at least one of his videos. Many made in the early 20th century had better steel and will take factory equivalent loads of smokeless.
Wiser to load them with black power of the proper grain size.

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Know your gun and stay within its limitations. The quality of guns of that era are all over the map. I am shooting S&W which I consider top quality. I think they can take hundreds of factory smokeless loads without degradation.

Tim

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Originally Posted by kootne

Here is some data from the day. From an undated du Pont blackpowder pamphlet that also mentions the company makes smokeless and semi-smokeless powders. I think the cartridge cases with the old folded heads and probably thinner brass will hold more volume than you will get into modern brass.
32 S&W and S&W Long are at lower right hand corner.
Attachment 310737

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Thanks

Tim

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Originally Posted by dtknowles

ok, I get it now. That does bring into question the velocity and pressures. What amounts to a large freebore and a long barrel will lower pressures and raise velocities vs. a 3.5" barrel revolver but still useful data when understood within its limitations.

Thanks again Larry.

Tim

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I've found the free bore due to the 32 H&R chamber emulates the free bore of the cylinder throats. Also the Contender barrel, being closed breach, doesn't lose any psi because there is no barrel/cylinder gap to bleed of psi. Thus, the psi in the revolver will be slightly less than with the Contender barrel. Other S&W loads velocity tested in my S&W 32 S&WL revolver w/3" barrel give the lower velocities you are recording. Just didn't have enough of the WRAs to also chronograph in the revolver.:cry:

S&W guns are better made than most of the rest but the steel is not much better. I have examined closely a break open S&W 32 that stretched. A safety hammerless.
Way too much end play at the cylinder, rotation and lock up were not reliable. Also the latch at the top was messed up. I would think black powder only.
Good Luck!

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Originally Posted by cuzinbruce

S&W guns are better made than most of the rest but the steel is not much better. I have examined closely a break open S&W 32 that stretched. A safety hammerless.
Way too much end play at the cylinder, rotation and lock up were not reliable. Also the latch at the top was messed up. I would think black powder only.
Good Luck!

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Steel is Steel... I can remember many folks Dissing and Cussing the Dan Wesson over being "cast"... then it was mentioned that Ruger did it too... no more Pissin and Moanin...and... Check the going price on old Dan Wessons!!! Poor Fragile darn things!!!!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cuzinbruce

S&W guns are better made than most of the rest but the steel is not much better. I have examined closely a break open S&W 32 that stretched. A safety hammerless.
Way too much end play at the cylinder, rotation and lock up were not reliable. Also the latch at the top was messed up. I would think black powder only.
Good Luck!

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Do you know what caused it to stretch?

Tim

I think I'D be tempted use to Red Dot in the .32 S&W Short, and Red Dot or Unique in the .32 S&W Long, ASSUMING that I could FIND any.
I wish you had another firearm like a .32 H&R or .327 Federal revolver, for your experimentations. The added strength of the firearms would be reassuring, when doing load work-up with home-made propellant.
Have you tried reloading with any of the commercially manufactured black powder products for comparison (or are they even available to you)? I know how the manufacturers measure THEIR various granulations, but I do not know how YOU would, except with a magnifier and a "bigger than/less than" comparison. If your black powder had exactly the same formulation as the commercial stuff, and your granulation was larger, it would lead me to expect lower velocities from it, for it will tend to be slower-burning, and less of it may be put in the case.
While I have not reloaded for the .32 Caliber straight-cased rounds, I concur with the Gent who pronounced Red Dot as being "better than excellent" in the small-case pistol and revolver calibers.

Quote Originally Posted by cuzinbruce View Post

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S&W guns are better made than most of the rest but the steel is not much better. I have examined closely a break open S&W 32 that stretched. A safety hammerless.
Way too much end play at the cylinder, rotation and lock up were not reliable. Also the latch at the top was messed up. I would think black powder only.
Good Luck!

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by racepres

Steel is Steel... I can remember many folks Dissing and Cussing the Dan Wesson over being "cast"... then it was mentioned that Ruger did it too... no more Pissin and Moanin...and... Check the going price on old Dan Wessons!!! Poor Fragile darn things!!!!!

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Steel is Steel

Not all steel alloys contain the same elements, crystal structure, or were heat treated the same.

Introducing the topic investment of cast parts using modern modern metallurgy vs smith and wesson forgings does not pertain to 19th century guns designed to handle black powder loads.

I will repeat from my earlier post. Many of the top break revolvers did not use metallurgy designed for smokeless power loads. An eye ball examination will not likely be able to tell exactly what grade of steel was used. Factory records may give the switch over date for when the steel was changed for a particular model of gun relative to serial number and other times one does not know. If in doubt use black powder.
This has also apparently been a problem with SAA colt revolvers with the dates varying from 1898 to 1900 or so for the switch over in metallurgy.

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Originally Posted by Kosh75287

I think I'D be tempted use to Red Dot in the .32 S&W Short.......The added strength of the firearms would be reassuring, when doing load work-up with home-made propellant.
Have you tried reloading with any of the commercially manufactured black powder products for comparison (or are they even available to you)? I know how the manufacturers measure THEIR various granulations, but I do not know how YOU would, except with a magnifier and a "bigger than/less than" comparison. If your black powder had exactly the same formulation as the commercial stuff, and your granulation was larger, it would lead me to expect lower velocities from it, for it will tend to be slower-burning, and less of it may be put in the case...

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I use Red Dot in the 32 S&W when I use smokeless powder. I stick to Lyman Handbook starting loads.

I did try GOEX 3f for comparison. I think I put the results over in the My Homemade Black Powder thread. It was a bit better than my homemade. It was not up to factory black powder ammo, but I think that is because it is 3f, probably needs to be 4F. I was thinking of maybe grinding some to see.

Tim

Quote:

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Originally Posted by racepres

Steel is Steel... I can remember many folks Dissing and Cussing the Dan Wesson over being "cast"... then it was mentioned that Ruger did it too... no more Pissin and Moanin...and... Check the going price on old Dan Wessons!!! Poor Fragile darn things!!!!!

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Steel ranges in tensile strength from about 40,000 PSI to over 150,000, depending on alloy type, heat treatment, carbon content and some other stuff. Especially in the area of heat treatment, there is a huge difference in metals produced since the end of WW I and those made before. Many revolvers produced in the 19th century should more accurately be described as "Iron" rather than steel.

I'd be looking at starting loads and black powder for my Iver Johnson unless I knew the date of production. Guns made after 1903 are usually considered to be safe for smokeless. Older guns are best suited to use with black powder only.

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Originally Posted by dtknowles

Do you know what caused it to stretch?

Tim

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My assumption is firing with smokeless factory ammunition. I never fired the piece. The damage was already done when I saw it. Unfortunately I can't think of any way to repair this kind of problem. Make a new, longer cylinder???
Best info I have found on these type guns is "Gunsmithing Guns of the Old West" by David Chicoine.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kootne

Here is some data from the day. From an undated du Pont blackpowder pamphlet that also mentions the company makes smokeless and semi-smokeless powders. I think the cartridge cases with the old folded heads and probably thinner brass will hold more volume than you will get into modern brass.
32 S&W and S&W Long are at lower right hand corner.
Attachment 310737

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I thanked you prematurely, I can read the picture.

Tim

A recap and one new data point.

I am making my own powder and decided to use my S&W 1 1/2 (3.5" barrel) for testing.

I was looking around for data on what was normal for this cartridge so I would know how my powder compares to historical norms.

New data point. I screened some GOEX 3f to get some finer powder and loaded 6.1 gr. of that finer powder with the same bullet I have been using. I clocked 571 fps. More than 100 fps improvement using the finer like maybe 4f powder.

The Lyman handbooks list a factory duplication load at 528 fps.

Other sources have factory ammo at more like 700 fps.

6 grains of GOEX 3f black powder produced 455 fps

My 6 gr. of homemade powder produced 395 fps.

One round of modern R-P head stamped ammo clocked 638 fps.

WRA round, 5 gr. of powder clocked 428 fps.

A Peters round, 5 gr. of powder clocked 508 fps.

A Rem UMC round, 6 gr. of powder clocked 590 fps.


Larry's testing data

WRA 7 gr of 4fg BP. Velocity with the 88 gr LRN bullets out of the 10" test barrel ran 725 fps.

One round of UMC 32 S&W with 6 gr pf BP under a 98 gr LRN bullet ran 14,200 psi.

Tim