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As the title says I have a Lyman sizer and a RCBS Lubesizer and both seem to size the bullets on a slight angle. This is with multiple size dies and correct top punches. This would lead me to believe it is something I am doing wrong in setup and not the equipment. The only thing I can think of is not completely cleaning out the die cavity before putting in a new die. Although I know that it was clean for the first setup. Anyone else have this problem and how did you fix it?
My LAM sizes straight and I have never put a boolit in either one of my 450's, so no help there.
Maybe try sizing a boolit, then removing the H&I die and reinstalling it 180 degrees from the original position and trying again. Or maybe its the top punch?
If both of yours really do size crooked, you have luck like mine.
Robert
Is this with long rifle bullets or just both pistol and rifle? It could also be that the top punch does not fit the nose correctly or is pushed out of alignment when the retaining screw is tight. If all else seems to be OK, size halfway, eject, rotate 180 and complete the process. Then see what the bullet is showing you.
Is lube building up under the bullets base while sizing?
I have had that problem with a Lyman 450, and a 4500, both were bought used and apparently worn out. They have noticeable slop in the ram. Have never noticed any wear like that in my old 45's. Does your 45 have any binding issues, I suppose the lube tube could be cross threaded at an angle, and cause the head to come down at an angle, but that would be very obvious. Haven't used an RCBS luber, but I have many 45's and like them.
Noticed my RCBS wasn't sizing concentrically, when I started casting longer rifle bullets. Short flat nosed pistol bullets, not an issue. Cure was graduating to a Star and using it as nose first sizer.......no need for anything other than flat punches. Only, use the LAM for sizing pistol bullets.
Winelover
The only time I get lube under the bullet is when I warm up the sizer with my hair dryer, It only takes a little to get it warm enough to work well but if I forget to back off the ratchet before warming it will splooge some out on the first size, then I just clean it out and it is good after that.Quote:
Originally Posted by 243winxb
The rams are tight on both sizers. I have had both apart and fully boiled out and cleaned and all is tight and straight. The 45 was my dads so I know the history on that one from when it was new, well at least when I was new. LOL He got it before I was born I believe. I was born in 51 so I have no idea how old it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gewehr-Guy
I don't size in an RCBS or Lyman for that matter for the reason you are mentioning. I size only in push through sizers. Mine are from Lee but I understand NOE makes good ones also. I lube in my RCBS machine with a die that is at least .001" larger than my sized bullets. Bullets sized crooked can't shoot as they should.
Good Luck,
Rick
Same here, seat checks and size with NOE push through dies and lube only with my LM2.Quote:
Originally Posted by RickinTN
Just like any production made Reloading press, the alignment of Ram and other machined areas can be slightly off. Some functions are less effected by this slight misalignment, while others are greatly effected.
So, when sizing long skinny Rifle boolits, a slight misalignment in a lubesizer can bend a boolit...But it's much less likely to effect a pistol boolit very much.
I can't help with any tricks with the RCBS, or the Lyman 450 and the newer 4500(which have a design flaw, as the ram wears the casting, it will have the TP engage a boolit at a slight angle)
... But with the Lyman 45, the usual misalignment comes from opening where the Die is inserted, it can become Oval if the setscrew was over tightened during it's lifetime. Anyway, you can "shim" the Die to correct, or offset the TP. Also, one of theprefessor's custom TP with O-ring can correct that as well.
Have you ever changed the O-Rings on the sizing dies. They may be worn out.
The Lyman dies do not have o-rings.
The top punches are going in nice a snug so they are not cocked and this happens with all of the dies both rifle and pistol. So what I am going to do is size a few and figure out what the position of the angle is and then rotate the die 90 degrees and see if that changes anything. If not then it has to be in the way the die is seated and I will clean out the unit and look into that. It is strange that it is happening on two different sizers from different brands and much different years, eras even.
Misalignment is different than cocked.
If you have a TP than is very close in size to a Die's ID, then once you get them installed snuggly, lower then TP onto the top of the Die, and if the alignment isn't visually perfect, you'll likely need to do some correcting, for long Rifle bullets anyway.
I have one of those I rebuilt with 450 0 rings that works perfect. You should be able to lower the top punch to the sizer to check for warp. The concave piston goes to the top. A 45 doesn't require 0 rings but 450 dies will fit mine. You can't use 45 dies in a 450 or it will leak. If using the correct punch to help line up and scrapes one side of the boolit and makes shinny on one side it's probably warped. You should be able to stand in front and then stand to the side and see a warp that bad. Measure the sizer piston and measure the od of a top punch that size and lower to check. The top punch should start in the sizer. A machine shop should be able to heat and fix. You could sell yours and buy mine. I have 6-450's to keep me company. :idea:Quote:
Originally Posted by Rickf1985
Wow, that's news to me.
I've been sizing my boolits since 1969 in my 450, with nary an issue. I must be holding my mouth right.
Yes, I was having the same problem when sizing 9mm bullets from an aluminum mold. Mine were sizing at a slight angle as evidenced by more sizing on one side of the bullet than the other.
The problem was the bullet base. I had waited too long before cutting the sprue, and ended up with a slight nub on the bullet base.
Sit your bullets on a level surface before sizing, and you should see them leaning to one side. Cut the sprues sooner while the lead is hotter.
It does not happen with the iron molds I have, as they hold the heat longer.
This may mean anything or nothing, but what lube are you using, and how much pressure do you put on it?
I have a Lachmiller that I use for heavy-duty sizing, and noticed that my .30 caliber boolits were coming out asymmetric like you describe. This had never happened before. But I had changed the lube in it to one of those modern High-Performance lubes (saving the Alox/Beeswax, Ideal and soft homemade lubes for use in the 45s). The new concoction wasn’t advertised as needing heat (that was the next product up on the performance chart), but required a lot of heaving on the wrench, even with a hair dryer, to get it moving. And, coincidentally, there were the scuffed and bent boolits.
I put a heater plate under the Lachmiller, waited until things were warm enough so the wrench work was no more difficult than with Alox/Beeswax, and ran some more boolits through. No more uneven sides, just like it used to work. Perfectamundo!
I have no idea as to cause and effect here, but if you’re using a Red or Blue or other high-velocity lube that’s stiffer than the old standbys, you might give this a try. If your Dad was using that 45 for all those years with no complaints, it’s unlikely that the alignment was off. There is, as Johnb mentioned, the potential for the setscrew to push the die offside, or even crack the casting, if tightened too hard, but any actual wear in the die hole would announce itself with ribbons of lube squeezing out of everywhere. The nut used on the RCBS (which was originally the Lachmiller sizer) would prevent any side motion of the die, so misalignment is even less likely there.
I dunno—I must lead a charmed life. I’ve scrounged up a half-dozen well-used Lyman 45s, a couple Ideals and the Lachmiller (bought new as a remainder), and I’ve found no evidence of misalignment in any of them. Also a plethora of used moulds, by all manufacturers, with only a couple instances of undersized castings.
Interesting thought. I am using White label blue which is not a real hard lube but it does like a little heat. I use a hair dryer since it does not need much, And I am far too cheap to spend the exorbitant money they want for heaters. Yes I bought the fan controller and built the soldering iron one then found out that fan controllers do not work on inductive loads. Money wasted.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bent Ramrod
I have run a few bullets through the sizer without lubing and I did not notice as much offset. I am going to spend some time looking at this one. Thanks for the idea.
Does the top punch actually fit the bullet nose properly? I long ago chucked the idea of a "form fitting" design and gone over to a nose cavity formed with a 60 degree center drill when I make a top punch. This assures concentric alignment, although it often does leave a little contact ring on the ogive when the alloy is soft. It might not do for slender spire points...I don't cast or shoot them so I can't say.
I have also had this misalignment problem with my Lyman 450. Found that the top punch hole was oversized. If I snug the set screw just enough to barely hold the top punch, my bullets will come out true. Could possibly shim the hole to center the punch. Having a "proud" sprue on bullets will also start them into the die a little off kilter, and could be part of the problem.
I had to take a stone and drill to widen the lip on one of my sizers because the boolit base was a bit large. You should see a little lead shave if not going in straight.
Funny you should mention that. Factory top punches are a sloppy fit in my 450s, too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slugster
I don't use the top punch set screws. I put a dab of grease on the top punch and seat it by running into the sizer die.
Haven't used the set screws in over 30 years.
My Lyman 4500 top punch hole measures 0.263 - I turned a brass top punch to 0.262 and it has no slop for the setscrew to cause offset.
Cut a flat or drill a hole in the punch shank so the setscrew can prevent it falling out without actually clamping the punch in an offset position.
Have you crossthreaded the large nut that goes over the die? That nut can be a pita to start straight. Are you using the right top punch?
Have you considered powder coating. You can convert your presses to size as push through and size point down with your present dies. This is what I did.
All good suggestions.
To get really straight uniformly sized bullets you need to nose first size and come back and lube in a slightly larger die.
Long bullets will bend. Especially long .25s and .30s. This is complicated by cold weather and stiff lube. A lube heater isnecessary under these conditions. The bent bullets are easily detected on a pane of glass. Roll across it and watch for a whop, whop movement of the nose.
About 15 years ago, a bunch of us corresponded on developing a new precision lubricator sizer. The discussion went on one winter for months off site. Probably should have done it on site as a lot of good ideas came up and problems discovered.
First off, lubricator sizers do a pretty good job of sizing and lubricating for their design and cost. probably as good as we'll get for the money. The tolerance is a Lyman can easily be in the range of .020" throughout the system. More if old. That's a #450. The #45 is worse. The RCBS is a little better and the Saeco is even better. We didn't look at the Star.
Our goal was to develop a lube sizer that used conventional dies and lube with much tighter tolerances. We learned a lot.
The final estimate for a prototype was around $2,000 worth of material and machining so we broke up the discussion and said, it's been nice boys, let's move on./beagle
"Tolerance" for what characteristic? Obviously not diameter of the processed bullet. I'd have a very hard time believing that the ram and die bores would be offset or misaligned by even .002", since they would be finished with the same tool Offset of nose punch center to ram axis? Radial clearance of ram in its' bore? Sum of both?
BTW the word tolerance is misused, I think. You meant deviation from nominal.