6.5mm Carcano Journey

I recently dropped by a local pawn shop, and they had a 6.5X52mm Carcano Model 1891/41. It was in great shape. The stock only had one small ding on it and was very clean. Bore looked very good. Could not see any pitting. Crown looked good as well. It came home with me.

I immediately ordered a set of Lee dies and some 6.5X52mm Carcano brass from Graff.

I cleaned the bore thoroughly and did not find any indication of copper filing (blue patch) when using an ammonia-based solvent. Maybe the previous owner had already removed any copper filing in the barrel.

I slugged the barrel and it measured 0.2682”. Looks like this is in the expected range.

The dies and brass arrived. I put the new #2 shell holder in my hand primer and the rims would not stay in the shell holder. Could not prime the brass. I had a couple of old #2 shell holders in my possession and I tried them. They both held the rims in place, and I primed the new brass. I sent an email to both Graff and Lee on my discovery and they both responded quickly with Lee placing a new #2 shell holder in the mail.

The only 6.5mm mold that I have is a Lyman 2660469. With powder coating, it only measures 0.2660”. With a gas check snapped on, I can get it up to 0.2685”. Basically, the same as the bore slugged measurement. Turns out, the new brass has an OD of 0.290” and an ID of 0.264”. I loaded some rounds to see what I had bought.

I loaded some 5 grains Red Dot and 7 grain Red Dot loads. At fifty yards with iron sights, both loads gave 5-shot groups less that 2 inches. POI was a little high with the lowest sight setting and off the left.

I neck sized one of the fired cases. The fired case had an OD of 0.299” and an ID of 0.273”. The neck-sized case had an OD of 0.286” and an ID of 0.261”. The decapping pin expander measures 0.263”. No chance of the PC-ed, GC-ed 0.2685” boolit working with the unsized case ID and the neck sized case ID was too small. I thought about paper patching the unsized cases. I remember seeing a post about someone using Teflon tape to “paper patch”. I found that an 1.5” strip of Teflon tape will bring the GC-ed boolit up to 0.2777”; about two complete wraps. I can seat the boolit, my hand, then give it a very light crimp and it will hold in place. A little overlap of the boolit base, by the tape, appears to hold the GC in place. A 10-shot group, using 7 gains of Red Dot, gave a 50 yard group of slightly less than 4 inches. Not as good as the new-case grouping.

The new #2 shell holder arrived from Lee. I decided to try it. Same problem with the replacement shell holder. I considered that the brass make be the problem. I measured the rim on five cases. They ranged from 0.4470” to 0.4480”. I believe the design dimension is 0.440”. Don’t think the brass is the issue. Not sure what is going on with the new shell holders.

I need and will be buying a new mold. I am looking at the NOE 270-147, 270-151, and 270-165 molds. Anyone have any suggestions on which is the better mold for a 6.5mm Carcano? Barrel is 27.2” with a 7.9” twist. Would love to find a used mold but that may not happen.

I forgot to comment on the too small neck expander. I am thinking that I will turn down a larger caliber neck expander based on the PC-ed, GC-ed boolit that a new mold drops. I am thinking that the necks will spring back about 0.002" and I will need about a 0.002" neck tension. Sort of nets out. Is this sound thinking?

I would think red dot would be too fast for the M41 length barrel. Try some Unique with a starting load of 8gns. Lose the gas checks and let the bullet obturate to fit the bore better. Keep your bronze brushes handy!

I am casting with 50/50 WW/Pure lead. Do you think that cast will obturate 0.0022"?

The heat and pressure should swell the base of the bullet .0022 no problem. Low pressure loads will blow by more than high pressure loads. High pressure loads melt the base hence the need for GC's Low pressure loads won't cause obturation and you get leading from hot gasses blowing by the bearing surface. You'll have to find that sweet spot where you get a good seal against the barrel.

Thanks for the suggestion.

Lyman makes an M Die for the 260 Rem. Not sure on the dimensions but maybe some one here can chime in on the suitability for the boolit size you need. Also consider “beagleing” and/or a second coat of PC after affixing the gas check.

I am looking to buy this mold myself- NOE 270-147. Along with the NOE expanders for my Carcano and several other rifles.

With your GC'd bullets I'd try 15 - 18 gr of 2400.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Larry Gibson

With your GC'd bullets I'd try 15 - 18 gr of 2400.

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Thanks for the suggestion.

I shoot 4 6.5 rifles. If you can buy the Lyman 266673 mould. It drops at .267-.268
I use the noe sizing system with a .267 bushing and apply the gas check. Then powder coat with Eastwood ford light blue. The boolit will be .269 size and is seated over 10 grains of green dot.
1.5-2" " are normal groups at 100 yards.
This is a load that my brother also shoots in his type 38.
I bought the 673 mould last year and was manufactured in April of 2021. I was worried about it being undersized but is not. I also add a little lino to ww lead.
Hope this helps you.

NOE makes expanders in a variety of sizes. An NOE expander in a LEE flaring die body might get you what you need.

someone put me onto using a Lyman shell holder for 38 special / 357 magnum for my Carcano works a lot better than the supposedly correct Lee offering

Quote:

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Originally Posted by smlekid

someone put me onto using a Lyman shell holder for 38 special / 357 magnum for my Carcano works a lot better than the supposedly correct Lee offering

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Thanks. That is good information. ��

I want to use this rifle to shoot steel at 50 yards and 100 yards offhand. I think I have found a Red Dot load range that will allow me to do this. The battle sight POI is at the POA at 50 yards and about 8” low at 100 yards. A top hold on the 18” steel plate should work well at 100 yards.

I am shooting boolits from a 270-165-FN GC mold. Boolits are sorted and test boolits range from 166.0 grains to 166.9 grains. Boolits are PC-ed.
The last two RD loads tested were 6.0 grains and 6.5 grains. The same target and POA is used for the 50-yard and 100-yard tests. Target results photo is attached below.

I used the GRT software to score the five shot groups. For some reason, I cannot figure out how to save the scored targets as a pdf file.

The 6.0 gn RD 5-shot load gave a 2.26 MOA result at 50 yards; 0.22" high. At 100 yards, the MOA result was 2.67; 8.56" low.

The 6.5 gn RD 5-shot loads gave a 2.90 MOA result at 50 yards; 0.17" high. At 100 yards, the MOA result was 2.65; 7.63" low.

I recently acquired some SR 4756 powder. The Lyman Third Edition Handbook contains data on Herco and SR 4756 loads for both 308 Win. and 30-06. Looks like both powders load the same at the lower range of the powder charges. Using QL and Herco data, I decided to try a 6.5 grain load of the SR 4756 powder in the 6.5 Carcano. Five shot groups were obtained at 50 yards and 100 yards. These are the two groups on the far-right side of the cardboard. The 6.5 gn SR 4756 load gave a 4.91 MOA result at 50 yards; 1.12" high. At 100 yards, the MOA result was 4.22; 10.43" low. The SR 4756 load needs some more development with elevated charges.

The measured rifle trigger breaks at about 8.5 pounds. Not exactly a target trigger. But it is what it is, and will be fun.

https://i.imgur.com/6axH7DR.jpg

Glad to see you are still pursuing your Carcano challenge. I’ve gone through a number of 6.5 Carcano’s with varying degrees of success. My latest is a Finnish stamped M38 in 7.35x51. I bought it as a bubba’d Sporter and tried to find the proper wood and metal to restore it to military specifications. A member on another forum offered me an old commercial take off stock, so I changed direction in trying to restore it. It took a bit of work to redo the stock. I removed the white line spacers and glass bedded the action. Did some sanding and plugged a few swivel holes and re-stained it. Found a plain base mould from Accurate and cast a few this weekend. Got a .3017 sizer die from ammohead here on our site.

https://i.postimg.cc/fTp98qSH/IMG-2327.jpg

Hope to see more of your project and load development.

Nice looking rifle. Hope it shoots well.

Funny this came up. A bunch of us at our range that shoot CBA bought M91 Calvary carbines. So far the .268 NOE round nose bullets w/ all the Loverin style rings w/ 9 grains of Unique are showing the most promise so far.

I had 18 prepped 6.5 Carcano cases remaining from the last load testing. Decided to increase the SR 4756 loads and loaded 7.5 grain, 8.0 grain and 8.5 grain SR 4756 loads. Five rounds of each load were prepared and fired at 50-yard targets.

Results at 50 yards
7.5 grain SR 4756: 3.90 MOA, 0.50” width, 2.04” height.
8.0 grain SR 4756: 3.68 MOA, 0.80” width, 1.89” height.
8.5 grain SR 4756: 3.96 MOA, 1.83” width, 2.07” height.

Observations

1) For the most part all three groups have a narrow horizontal spacing. There was one round, in the third group that added 1.3” to the group width. Eliminate that round and the other four-round group is 0.50” wide. Guess that means I am doing a fair job of holding the horizontal sight plane.

2) The vertical spread is driving the groups MOA. The vertical varied from 1.89” to 2.07”. This could be a SD problem, bedding problem or a shooter problem. Not sure how to address this issue.

3) There does not seem to be a significant difference in the precision of the three groups.

I had three rounds remaining of the 18 loaded rounds. I fired them at a 100-yard target to get a feel for the drop at 100 yards. The three rounds had a drop that ranged for 6- 8 inches.

I think I will try some additional loads, 9.0 gn, 8.5 gn and 10.0 gn, to see if anything improves or the groups start to open up.

https://i.imgur.com/E7EL6dB.jpg

Results at 50 yards
I have generated data for SR 4756 loads ranging from 7.5 grains to 10.0 grains at a range of 50 yards. Some loads were tested with two 5-shot groups and others only one 5-shot group. It was noted that almost all the tested load groups had one round that exceeded 3 S.D. The remaining 4 rounds appear to group nicely. I decided to see how the >3 S.D. round affected the overall group. For each of the tested loads, using the GRT Shotgroup calculator, I determined data for both 5-shot groups and best 4-shot groups. The average MOA for all nine 5-shot groups was 3.59 MOA. The average MOA for all nine 4-shot groups was 2.52 MOA. Looks like it makes about a 1 MOA difference. The data are presented below.

From what I can gleam from the data, I can expect the rifle to shoot around 3.5 MOA on any given day and occasionally, it may reward me with a 2.5 MOA group. Looks like there may be a sweet spot in the 9.0 to 9.5 grain load range. Will have to see.

5-Shot Groups
7.5 grain SR 4756: Group 1: 5-shots 3.90 MOA, 0.50” width, 2.04” height.
8.0 grain SR 4756: Group 1: 5-shots 3.68 MOA, 0.80” width, 1.89” height.
8.5 grain SR 4756: Group 1: 5-shots 3.96 MOA, 1.83” width, 2.07” height.
9.0 grains SR 4756 Group 1: 5-shots 4.18 MOA, 1.84” width, 1.32” height.
9.0 grains SR 4756 Group 2: 5-shots 3.43 MOA, 1.59” width, 1.05” height.
9.5 grains SR 4756 Group 1: 5-shots 3.71 MOA, 1.10” width, 1.93” height.
9.5 grains SR 4756 Group 2: 5-shots 2.02 MOA, 0.84” width, 1.06” height.
10.0 grains SR 4756 Group 1: 5-shots 4.34 MOA, 1.81” width, 1.54” height.
10.0 grains SR 4756 Group 2: 5-shots 3.37 MOA, 1.01” width, 1.75” height.
Average: 3.59 MOA for the six 5-shot groups.

4-Shot Groups
7.5 grains SR 4756 Group 1: 4-shots 2.45 MOA, 0.15” width, 1.24” height.
8.0 grains SR 4756 Group 1: 4-shots 2.63 MOA, 0.80” width, 0.46” height.
8.5 grains SR 4756 Group 1: 4-shots 3.96 MOA, 0.52” width, 2.07” height.
9.0 grains SR 4756 Group 1: 4-shots 2.20 MOA, 1.15” width, 0.46” height.
9.0 grains SR 4756 Group 2: 4-shots 2.28 MOA, 1.14” width, 1.05” height.
9.5 grains SR 4756 Group 1: 4-shots 2.31 MOA, 1.10” width, 0.84” height.
9.5 grains SR 4756 Group 2: 4-shots 1.99 MOA, 0.84” width, 1.02” height.
10.0 grains SR 4756 Group 1: 4-shots 2.83 MOA, 1.11” width, 1.20” height.
10.0 grains SR 4756 Group 2: 4-shots 2.05 MOA, 0.82” width, 1.07” height.
Average: 2.52 MOA for the nine best 4-shot groups. 1.07 MOA delta.

Based on the 50-yard data, I loaded 9.0 grain SR 4756 and 9.5 grain SR 4756 loads of 10 rounds each and tested them at 100 yards. Fired two 5-round groups of each load. The 9.0 grain loads averaged a 4.0" low POI. The 9.5 grain loads averaged a 0.67" low POI. Results seem to confirm what I predicted earlier; expect something around 3 MOA, sometimes a reward around 2 MOA.

9.0 grains SR 4756 Group 1: 5-shots 2.09 MOA, 2.15” width, 1.39” height.
9.0 grains SR 4756 Group 2: 5-shots 3.01 MOA, 2.62” width, 1.99” height.
9.5 grains SR 4756 Group 1: 5-shots 2.91 MOA, 2.55” width, 2.69” height.
9.5 grains SR 4756 Group 2: 5-shots 3.36 MOA, 2.27” width, 3.33” height

I recently had the opportunity to buy a keg of SR 4756 powder. Gross weight of the keg was 12.5 lbs. I figure the can weighs 1.5 lbs or so. Think I will stay with 9.5 grains for this rifle and start to look for loads in other calibers.

Don't think I have posted a picture of the 6.5 Carcano rifle before. Added photos of it and my shooting bench.

https://i.imgur.com/9DxZScv.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/ZSbdnvP.jpg