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So I get some 24ga brass, Magtech, and noticed the rim is kind of small.
Looking at the dimensions of other shotgun brass, I noticed that the 20ga rim size is the same as the MH case.
Has anyone tried making MH case out of 20ga instead of 24ga brass?????
It's not the rim size that is important, it's the body size! 20 gauge is too small.
The 20ga body is around .698, the 24ga is around .661, at the base.
So the 20ga is bigger.
Not a shot gunner, so don't know much about them.
Just going by what I can find on the web.
Shotgun bore sizes are based on the number of round balls cast from a pound of lead.
12 to the pound get you 12 gauge.
Thats why a 20 gauge is larger than a 24 gauge.
Over the years ,CBC (Magtech) has increased the rim thickness and squared off the shape from the original very angled shotgun rim......neverthe less ,the rim thickness is still a lot short of spec for a 577/450 or for a 577Snider.........this does not cause any problems in operation.....if you use sane loadings .......Insane loadings being 110gr of 2F ,which fits in the case.
24ga brass, Magtech works great in my 577-450
If your planning on forming your newly aquired 24 gauge cases and have or order the Lee 577-450 die set .
Order a 24 gauge shell holder at the same time , they fit the rim a whole lot better
my LEE dies work just fine on my 24 gauge MAGTECH brass.
To the original question about using 20 gauge brass hulls--it won't work nearly as well as using 24 gauge, and I don't think it would work at all. To use a 20 gauge you would have to swage the head down by about 30/1000ths (.030). In the context of case forming, that is pretty extreme--I haven't heard of it being done. Case head swaging is usually thought of in terms of a few 1000ths, with .010 to .015 being a very large reduction that usually involves some degree of lathe work. I don't know if a brass shotshell would stand for that kind of treatment without deforming in ways you don't want. Also, Magtech brass hulls are pretty thin, so not much material to work with if you're thinking of turning the head to a smaller diameter.
Conventional wisdom is to use a 24 gauge hull for forming .577 and .577/450 (or obtain correct cases made by Betram, Ten-x, Kynoch, or others) and find a shell holder that works with the cases you use.
--DJ
I'm not saying the Lee dies don't work just fine , they do .Quote:
Originally Posted by toot
Just saying to use the 24 gauge shell holder that matches the cases .
It is a much better fit then what comes with the die set and will save some mangled up rims .
Who makes a 24ga shell holder????
I've checked Lee, RCBS.
According to Buffalo Arms it's the same as a 577 shell holder.
I have the one from Lee.
If you want the brass head up firm against the breech face, get yourself some thin "O" rings at a hardware.
many years ago ,when the CBC 24ga with Berdan primers first became available,I made my own shellholder to suit the sloped shotgun rim........i have since bought two Lee shellholders ,which are just as suitable .....Incidentally,the Lee sizing dies are way too small ,and this accounts for the high percentage of crushed cases in forming.......If you must use a Lee die ,first enlarge the neck of the die to .5".......this is the correct size for a MH ,and reduces the forming force appreciably.
do you mean slide the thin O-RING over the case to the rim, then fire it?
Yes!
It holds the case firmly against the boltface even when the firing pin pushes it forward under firing.
Only needed firing once formed cases.
Want to share loading data there LtCol.Quote:
Originally Posted by skeettx
17nut, thank you for the reply to my question. so just use it for fireforming, not after?
I normally do the "o-ring" thing on first firing, to set the head space.
Then neck size only.
Got the Lee dies set to help form the dies.
It's a three dies set.
Full length, seater, expander, shell holder.
If you are really ambitious you can make cases from scratch using not so conventional methods, kind of have to think outside of the box.
The original cases were brass foil ,paper,and an iron two piece base.........solid drawn cases went issued until 1883 ,and then only for tropical areas.......the foil cases lasted into the smokeless powder era.
abunaitoo, thank you.
I've made all my 577/450 cases from reformed 24ga Magtec brass. I also use them to reform 577 Snidewr. Shot this 10 shot group with the Magtec brass many years ago.
https://i.imgur.com/X53xURLl.jpg
I though my comment about making cases from scratch might get you to thinking I was just wise cracking.
I don't recommend doing this as it is a real pain.Attachment 307357Attachment 307358
Ive also made cases out of brass tube...and turned them from solid......not since the first 24ga came on the market..........at first they were Berdan primed,which wasnt all bad as Magtech also sold the odd sized (6.45mm) Berdan primers..........Some of my CBC/Magtech brass has been fired 100 times .........this is not BS,I never size the cases ,just use a paper patched bullet which holds in the neck nicely........if you size cases every load with the Lee die ,they will split necks quickly..........the Lee die is purposely made too small...Lee say they made the die small ,so that every possible rifle will chamber sized reloads.
I have used Mag Tec 24 gauge to good effect. Also old Kynock's converted to 209 primers and an assortment of others. The most accurate were fire formed and the bullet either PP'd or sized to a firm slip fit in the case and they never get sized after the forming shot. It is a great old cartridge. Squid Boy
Care sharing how you converted to 209?Quote:
Originally Posted by Squid Boy
I've fooled with it a little bit and I'm curious how you did it. Did you have any pitfalls to be avoided?
Bad Ass Wallace, now that target has bragging rights!!!! it should be framed.
of course, the pith helmet and red shirt also help you shoot better!Quote:
Originally Posted by toot
https://i.imgur.com/a8ibhKXm.jpg
Now you need some bagpipes playing in the background!Quote:
Originally Posted by Bad Ass Wallace
(LOL) or some Zulu's chanting.
Have a full 24th Regiment of Foot Uniform but it is so hot and heavy, cannot imaging wearing it in the heat of Africa!
https://i.imgur.com/PXYiLoMl.jpg
roger that! pith helmet & red shirt, is just the cat's meow! if that is all that it takes to shoot a group like you posted sign me up!!!
at a reenacting event that I went to in the August heat, a women went up to a crusty old BRIT, OFFICIER, garbed out in his finest wool uniform, and asked him aren't you very hot in all of that wool that you are wearing, to whit he replied to her- no man I am not hot in my uniform because the QUEEN says that I am not hot- there fore I am not hot!!! thought you might like that, and it is true. his name was IAN McKAY. this happened 46 yrs ago. he is gone now, and he had no patiance for women & children asking questions. GOD BLESS HIM.
wearing all of that wool in AFRICA, they didn't have a choice! I believe?
looking at the picture and the way you are holding and loading the MH. are you left handed?
You are correct sir. That's why I have 30+ Martini's and also favour Winchester lever guns.
I even have a LH Alex Henry dated 1878 in 577/450.
https://i.imgur.com/anHnrwFl.jpg
WOW! 30+ MH'S. now I know where that they have all gone! LOL. they definitely will work for lefthanded people. the ALEX HENERY, I have never even heard of? guess I have got to get out more often. was it MFG. as a military weapon, or for sporting / civilian hunting? if military did it have a bayonet? any way it is a real beauty. thanks for the pictures of it.
Howdy Pards
Enjoyed reading the posts. Picked up some good info. In my Snider I have used 24 gauge brass and actual factory 577 brass (Jamison and other makes). An issue with 24 gauge brass, at least with my rifle, is the small rim not always making good purchase with the extractor. I make sure to have a cleaning rod handy to poke out those cases that choose to be recalcitrant. Not an issue with genuine 577 brass.
Those old smoke poles are fun to shoot. Touching off one of those rounds at the range immediately draws a crowd. I bring extra ammo for those that want to pop a cap.
Side note. A trivia question that can be directed to the “know it all” shooting guys: why was the 24 gauge shotgun popular from the end of the Civil War and loaded by ammo companies into the 1930’s?
Answer: there were hundreds of thousands of 58 caliber muskets at Civil War’s end … both in the US as well as internationally … that had been rendered obsolete by the introduction of cartridge rifles. Early on many of these were converted to 58 caliber cartridges, both center fire and, if memory serves, to 58 caliber rimfire cartridges. Multitudinous numbers of those had the rifling smoothed out and were converted to 24 gauge shotgun. Believe most were relined or rebarreled to 50-70 caliber and, possibly, to 45-70.
The 24 gauge is still encountered in Europe (and perhaps elsewhere?) with factory ammo still loaded. A French outfit, Cheddite, made 24 gauge plastic shotgun hulls. I bot some … either Graf & Sons or Track of the Wolf, I forget which … trimmed them to proper length, and made some black powder, round ball ammo.
It keeps those ancient smoke poles in the game instead of sitting on the sidelines.
Keep on the sunny side
Adios
Fort Reno Kid
Howdy again Pards
In response to the question about a bayonet on a Martini-Henry … Yes.
Find the great movie “Zulu” on a streaming channel or excerpts in YouTube. Indeed those Martini-Henry’s with their 30” long barrels topped with a 22” bayonet were as formidable as a spear.
Toward the end of the movie there’s a climactic scene where the Sargeant-Major, with a bayoneted Martini-Henry, takes on a spear-wielding warrior in a fight to the death.
The end of the movie has a narration by Richard Burton summarizing the results of the battle and the large numbers of Victoria Crosses that were awarded.
I have Martini-Henry in 577-450 and load black-powder ammo for it. Touch one of those off at the range and you’ll draw a crowd in no time. Take extra ammo. Everyone will want to to pop a cap.
Keep on the sunny side
Adios
Fort Reno Kid
PS. Side note: this was one of Michael Caine’s early roles. A breakout role IMHO. To those used to seeing him playing elderly men in movies of recent years, in “Zulu” he barely looks old enough to shave.
Richard Burton was Welsh, as were most of the soldiers at Rork’s Drift. I believe he did the narration for the price of a bar tab.
The purists should note in many scenes, the actors were using "tricked up" SMLE Mk1 bolt actions and not Martini's!