Hornady dies kicking my butt.... again...

So my 6.5-30 jdj barrel and dies finally showed up from SSK. I’ve been patiently anticipating this day. I have .30-30 brass sized, annealed, and ready to convert to 6.5-30 brass. I’ve been playing with odd calibers and converting brass of all shapes and sizes for a pretty long time. And during that time I have learned to avoid Hornady dies. I’m sure some of you guys probably prefer Hornady dies and I respect that. What works for me certainly isn’t what works for someone else. I can’t even get the brass to start sizing beyond 1/16-1/8 of an inch before the neck collapses. And as usual I can’t get a picture to upload.
I’m frustrated, tired, and oviously have crazy expectations. I’ve never had a good experience with Hornady dies, although I can usually get them to load ammo. And I’ve never had much luck uploading pics here, but I have gotten a few to load.

I've had much better luck necking down without annealing. I do anneal after but every time I have tried annealing first neck collapsing becomes an issue.

That being said I have never necked down for my 6.5 JDJ. I use 225 Winchester so for the 6.5 JDJ I've only necked up.

I don’t bash brands of equipment. What works for some might not work for others. All that being said I don’t particularly care for Hornaday dies. Every set I’ve had I’ve had issues with of one kind or another. Just my experiences. I realize more than likely it’s operator error. Lol

Anneal before EXPANDING necks, but never before sizing DOWN.

Where you already have annealed, maybe try using a 7mm die of some kind first. That may work the brass enough to harden it up again.

Yes, annealing before sizing down is going to collapse the shoulders more often than not. I have also collapsed a few shoulders when necking up, but a low percentage comparing to necking down.

Also, try using your bullet seating die to size a case down first. Remove the bullet seating parts, lube a case and size. The seating die is larger than the regular sizing die.

I agree about the annealing,...always done after reforming is best.

Ok, I tried some brass that hasn’t been annealed and got the same results. I’ll try the seating die when I get home tonight. I thought about looking for some Lee 7-30 waters dies and see it thT might be a good first step in the neck down process.

BP man: Not knowing your background (other than your self expressed experience level, which I take at face value) and not being able to easily see a print of the 6.5-30 JDJ, please take my comments for what they may offer you in way of help.

Many JDJ cartridges have pretty steep shoulder angles (I remember his 06 family for the Encore as having 60° angle for instance).
The shoulder angle pretty much dictates the breakdown of resultant forces in the sizing operation from a radial to longitudinal force perspective (friction and other things confound the simple relationship). As the angle goes up, the longitudinal force on the shoulder during resizing goes up in relation to the radial force. The radial force must always reach yield on the brass to size the case neck. At 45°, these forces to size the neck, and that pushing on the shoulder in a collapsing manner, are approximately equal (simply using resultant force analysis, they would be equal). This is why steep shoulders are hard to reform on a single pass. You probably know this, so not meant to offend.

Some things that would help are what you appear to be pursuing already: 7-30 as first step (I would set the shoulder of the 7-30 sizing operation below where you want the 6.5-30 to minimize the shoulder you are forming directly from the 6.5 die), and use a good lube like Imperial size die wax.
I would still set the (small) shoulder from the pass through the 6.5 die to help control your headspace during firing. Maybe SSK cuts to use the rim for HS, maybe (probably) not, and I know that with the 7-30 in a Contender it's not the best idea to use the rim for HS.

I never anneal brass for my 7-30 Contender, and I use range pick ups as donors.
One pass in die w/ Imperial size wax, and fire them. Sure I lose some at firing (my choice), but never during forming.

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Originally Posted by poppy42

I don’t bash brands of equipment. What works for some might not work for others. All that being said I don’t particularly care for Hornaday dies. Every set I’ve had I’ve had issues with of one kind or another. Just my experiences. I realize more than likely it’s operator error. Lol

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I especially don't like the hornady American series. They didn't even come in a case..just a blister pack. The expander in a 357/38 kit I bought was junk. Luckily I had an old lumen set too. I use a 4 hole Lee and keep 2 seater on it.. 1 recap and an expander. That way I can run both 38 and 357 one seater for each, pre set.

Lucky for me I had dupe dies..because their sets level a lot to be desired. I'm careful with their brass too. I've ran across a lot of short factory brass and flash holes that weren't perfectly centered. ( which liked to break recapping stems.. Until I tried up all the brass in that batch. )

I've necked down and reformed a lot of old .30-06 military 1940-46 brass using a lot of different brand dies for a lot of years. None of my "problems" were about the die brand, it's ALL been due to how far down the cases had to move per step; I've found that most cases and dies will work fine IF the steps are limited to about .020" of change. More than that in one step gives me a lot of collapsed/inverted necks AND wrinkled shoulders/bodies.

IF you can find reforming die sets at all, they are costly. I've learned to buy flea market and yard sale FL dies, anything I can get cheep. I bore out and otherwise modify the right ones into my own reforming die sets. My ".30-06 to .22-250" form set has six modified dies but I no longer lose cases during reforming.

Thanks for the replies. Last brass I “made” was .25-20 from 7.62 Nagant this past summer. So making pain in the neck brass isn’t new to me. And I’m sure many others would pick the Hornady dies, I wish they were Lee or RCBS. But they’re not and I’m going to order some Lee 7-30 waters dies and make it a 2 step process. If it still doesn’t work for me maybe I’ll cut down a Lee 6.5x55 sizer. If that doesn’t work I may be ordering a 7-30 Waters barrel.

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Originally Posted by blackpowder man

So my 6.5-30 jdj barrel and dies finally showed up from SSK. I’ve been patiently anticipating this day. I have .30-30 brass sized, annealed, and ready to convert to 6.5-30 brass. I’ve been playing with odd calibers and converting brass of all shapes and sizes for a pretty long time. And during that time I have learned to avoid Hornady dies. I’m sure some of you guys probably prefer Hornady

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I am very familiar with the standard 6.5 JDJ. I am much less familiar with the 6.5-30 JDJ. Is that basically a 6.5/30-30AI?

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Originally Posted by blackpowder man

Thanks for the replies. Last brass I “made” was .25-20 from 7.62 Nagant this past summer. So making pain in the neck brass isn’t new to me. And I’m sure many others would pick the Hornady dies, I wish they were Lee or RCBS. But they’re not and I’m going to order some Lee 7-30 waters dies and make it a 2 step process. If it still doesn’t work for me maybe I’ll cut down a Lee 6.5x55 sizer. If that doesn’t work I may be ordering a 7-30 Waters barrel.

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If you can find 7-30 Waters brass would that not be a better starting point for your 6.5-30 JDJ?

Find and cut down a 7x57 Mauser die for your intermediate. It has the shallowest shoulder angle of any of the common 7mm cartridges, and that will ease your initial neck-sizing process.

It is .30-30 nucked down to 6.5. How blown out the taper and shoulders are has yet to be seen by me. The regular 6.5 jdj would be great if I could buy .225 brass.

7-30 waters brass would be good, yes. But 7-30 dies are $36 and .30-30 brass is easily obtained.

Save the already annealed brass for another project or sell them to someone who needs 30/30 brass. Neck a new batch of brass down, THEN anneal prior to fireforming.

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Originally Posted by uscra112

Anneal before EXPANDING necks, but never before sizing DOWN.

Where you already have annealed, maybe try using a 7mm die of some kind first. That may work the brass enough to harden it up again.

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:goodpost:
This is great rule . The too soft necks are collapsing .
7mm die just might do the trick ... worth a try .
Gary

Wouldn't a simple file and trim die work for an intermediate step. Just one die and shouldn't be as expensive as a 2 die set.

Lee 7-30 waters dies did the trick. I like Hornady products and have used quite a few of them. I personally don’t care for their dies though. Anyway, at the end of the day if I can accomplish whatever wierd, obsolete, wildcat, oddball thing I’m trying to do then life is good. And if the 6.5-30 JDJ lives up to my accuracy expectations then it will be even better.

Sounds like you have it all figgered out, but just for the hell of it,
GONRA has always used STP Oil Treatment for a sizing lube.
5.7x28mm FN brass all way up to 14.5mm Soviet LSC
scrap dealer cases.....

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Originally Posted by GONRA

Sounds like you have it all figgered out, but just for the hell of it,
GONRA has always used STP Oil Treatment for a sizing lube.
5.7x28mm FN brass all way up to 14.5mm Soviet LSC
scrap dealer cases.....

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A big "plus" on the STP! Also -- an instruction from an older than me fellow ;) -- was to use a dampened with STP Q-tip on the INSIDE of the case as well (assuming you may have not -- apologies should you had) and, before any resizing at all use a brass or bronze brush to make certain inside of case to be resized is "as smooth as a baby's butt" (whatever that means ;)).
Lastly, I cannot agree more with the several postings re annealing -- never before sizing down.
BEST!
geo

I'm sure it works, but STP is so hard to clean off afterward.

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Originally Posted by uscra112

I'm sure it works, but STP is so hard to clean off afterward.

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Will it clean off with rubbing alcohol or acetone?

RCBS case lube was STP and it was water soluble if I remember right. Haven't used it for years. Use Bag Balm now, much cheaper and one box will last the rest of my life.

Not STP. STP is anything but water-soluble. I long thought it was some form of lanolin, but it's not that, either. Some long and unspellable chemical name that I forget.

a lot of CANADIANS & BRITS, use UDERLY SMOOTH, hand cream. they put a dab on the bullet / lead head before inserting it into the chamber. we call it UDDER BUDDER. the BRITISH shooters forum in CANADA shoots, that they have use it. you can get a tube or can of it at any prescription center.

The early JDJ cases by SSK were all contender based cats and used the 225 Win Mag case to get 65k pressure rated rimmed cases.
Today according to the owner, Star Line only makes 65k proofed 30-30 brass.
You just need to use new unfired Star Line brass to step size and form. Use a 7-08 die, a 6.8 SPC die, then the 6.5 die with a 30-30 shell holder, fire form, one shot and only one shot, a full house, standard load. Please lube in and out of the neck with "case lube."
I have had several of the neck up or neck down single shot cartridge guns for the handguns made by BF, XL, Merrill, TC, MOA, etc.

STP - (Scientifically Treated Petroleum) is a petroleum based lubricating oil with a long chain zinc based additive included. RCBS case lube is, and has always been, lanolin based. Lanolin is derived from the natural oils present on sheep wool. They are two completely separate things.

The STP has worked for me-same bottle for 15 years, still almost full. I use it primarily with Hornady 300BLK dies and Nickel plated brass, and with 308 being necked down to 7mm-08.

I had problems with the Hornady 300BLK dies and stuck cases. I switched to a LEE sizing die and the problems stopped. So, I am back to using Hornady One Shot as my case lube, for 300BLK.

The STP inside the neck really helps get through the doughnut restriction on the up stroke after necking down.

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Originally Posted by uscra112

Anneal before EXPANDING necks, but never before sizing DOWN.

Where you already have annealed, maybe try using a 7mm die of some kind first. That may work the brass enough to harden it up again.

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I totally disagree with your position here, sir.

By annealing you make the brass soft enough to conform to the new dimensions.

Not annealing will sometimes stress the brass such that the case collapses or the necks split.

Been there, done that, have the shirt.

...

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Originally Posted by 405grain

STP - (Scientifically Treated Petroleum) is a petroleum based lubricating oil with a long chain zinc based additive included. RCBS case lube is, and has always been, lanolin based. Lanolin is derived from the natural oils present on sheep wool. They are two completely separate things.

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Maybe they have changed the name but originally STP stood for Studebaker Top Petroleum. Can be easily removed with carb or brake cleaner.
I use one of those flip open cases that calipers come in with a piece of sheet foam in the bottom saturated with STP and Q-tip.
Roll the case over the foam,give the inside of the neck a swab and size and give the case a squirt with brake cleaner and blow it out with compressed air.

When I made 6.5 Remington Mag from 7 Remington Mag I found out that new cases had worked better than once fired. I had no reject’s with the new cases. I annealed after they were formed and trimmed.

405grain is right.

https://www.definitions.net/definition/STP

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/STP_(motor_oil_company)