Cleaning from the muzzle

For nearly all my life I have heard that cleaning from the muzzle, will damage the rifling at the crown and therefore ruin accuracy.

My question is: have any of you ever experienced this? I have some rifles and ALL my revolvers that have been cleaned from the muzzle exclusively and I am unable to determine ANY degradation in accuracy, nor can I see ANY physical damage to the muzzle, crown or rifling at that point.

Personally, I believe this is largely an old wives' tale which has survived all these years because some dolt managed to booger up the muzzle in some fashion and blamed it on the cleaning from the muzzle because he was afraid to admit that he did something stupid.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Your thoughts?

It is a known fact that cleaning from the muzzle will damage the rifling, just look at all the old military rifles that had the barrels
replaced because of muzzle cleaning.
I've seen many russian 91-30's that had the barrel counter bored by the importer it remove the damage.
If cleaning from the muzzle I use a muzzle protector

I think a lot depends on how the cleaning is done and especially the cleaning rod material. Most milsurps used very hard steel cleaning rods. A softer brass or other materials and careful use would probably take decades of shooting and cleaning to do harm.

Any time I clean anything from the muzzle I use a carbon fiber cleaning rod.

Well, it should be stated that "improper" cleaning from the muzzle will damage the rifling/crown.

Using a crown protector and keep the rod straight (minimizing contact with crown) will keep from damaging or wearing the rifling at the muzzle.

Improper cleaning from the muzzle can/will damage the crown and on down into the barrel.
Dirty Steel rods without a guide will do it pretty quickly too.
Muzzle guides and plastic coated rods will prolong the life of the end of the barrel.

I have a well worn Confederate musket that the end of the barrel is clearly oval shaped from not having a guide.
And, no, it wasn't crushed. It has thinned out on the sides by the abrasion of a ram rod going in & out a ga-zillion times.

Even in the old days, some high end octagon barrel BP rifles had a custom guide that came with them.
The arms maker cut a inch or so off the barrel, put little pins in it, and matching holes in the muzzle.
When using the ram rod, you'd put the end piece back on to protect the crown.
After the rod was pulled out, you'd take it off and keep it in your pocket.

I've seen several Winchesters with worn muzzles, all of which had the trapdoor for the cleaning rod in the buttplate. Those barrels were soft steel and most any type of metal rod would cause wear. Marlins were/are easier to pull the bolt so some folks may have taken the time to remove it so they could work from the rear, but I suspect most people were in a hurry and cleaned from the muzzle.

After I posted I realized I should have stated, excluding ML guns. Of course, I can imagine the damage at the muzzle in that instance, but I dare say that an average day at the range with a muzzle loader and then the pita cleanup afterward would cause as much wear, especially since a lot of ML barrels are not CM but a relatively soft steel, as years and years of cleaning a "modern" gun from the muzzle.

"Most milsurps used very hard steel cleaning rods. A softer brass or other materials and careful use would probably take decades of shooting and cleaning to do harm."

I find that comment interesting since I was also taught the soft rods, in particular aluminum, were far worse because the grit in the bore had a tendency to imbed in the softer material causing the rod to act like a lapping rod. Back when the world was young and I was shooting bench rest, the debate raged in regard to using a coated rod or a bare hard steel rod. Admittedly, the rifles were cleaned from the breech, but the argument went, bare steel allows a larger diameter equating to a more rigid rod, thereby minimizing rod flex within the bore, or for the coated rod adherents, they believed the rod was going to flex regardless so use a non-imbedding coated rod to protect the bore. Pay your dollar and take your choice.

All that aside, my question is, although probably not very clearly presented, HAVE YOU PERSONALLY experienced accuracy degradation in a gun that you have routinely cleaned from the muzzle?

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Originally Posted by roysha

I was also taught the soft rods, in particular aluminum, were far worse because the grit in the bore had a tendency to imbed in the softer material causing the rod to act like a lapping rod.

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Good point.

I'm a big Dewey rod guy, and always wipe off the rod each time it comes out of the bore just for that reason.

Exactly ^^^^ Even a hardened steel rod will get covered in grit because of powder and oil residue. Any rod, from the breech or the muzzle should be wiped clean after each pass . I have dealt with hundreds of milsurps and many of their hardsteel cleaning rods are knicked up pretty well. Clean rod, muzzle guard and a bit of care and you should be able to avoid damage.

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Originally Posted by roysha

All that aside, my question is, although probably not very clearly presented, HAVE YOU PERSONALLY experienced accuracy degradation in a gun that you have routinely cleaned from the muzzle?

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I may be wrong but I doubt anyone has intentionally run a direct comparison test of the two methods, which would make a good DOE. Take two identical rifles, fire control groups then start shooting some amount of rounds - clean one from the muzzle and one from the breech, repeatedly over time. Fire more groups for control after so each group of shots. All of this might take a while and not manifest itself until thousands of shots are downrange - but it could be done.

Instead, we observe old rifles, military or black powder or whatever, which have measurable wear (sometimes at both ends of a barrel). Some still shoot well but others don't - regardless, we have no way of knowing how they shot when new.

To answer your question - no, I have not personally experienced accuracy deterioration in rifles cleaned from the muzzle. I have switched to Bore Snakes for most of my barrels so it may be a moot point now.

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Originally Posted by HWooldridge

Fire more groups for control after so each group of shots. All of this might take a while and not manifest itself until thousands of shots are downrange -

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I'd think it would relate more to how many times and how violently a cleaning rod went up & down it.

I wouldn't bother with doing a bunch of research,
but I sure do pay attention to the crown and look for visible damage to the crown when buying a used rifle or handgun.
I've only seen a couple over the years, but I have noticed excessive wear on one side of a muzzle or two
where the bluing & 'shine' on the lands & grooves was different from one side to the others.
I have no idea how they'd shoot since I didn't buy them.

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Originally Posted by Winger Ed.

I'd think it would relate more to how many times and how violently a cleaning rod went up & down it.

I wouldn't bother with doing a bunch of research,
but I sure do pay attention to the crown and look for visible damage to the crown when buying a used rifle or handgun.
I've only seen a couple over the years, but I have noticed excessive wear on one side of a muzzle or two
where the bluing & 'shine' on the lands & grooves was different from one side to the others.
I have no idea how they'd shoot since I didn't buy them.

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Agreed. Just because it could be done doesn’t mean it should be done…that axiom applies to all sorts of things in life.

This is one of those questions that is difficult to answer empirically unless tested but I doubt anyone wants to pursue it.

I nicked a crown years ago when cleaning from the muzzle. It did not affect accuracy, but left an impression. I always clean from the breech if possible and use Dewey rods.

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Originally Posted by roysha

HAVE YOU PERSONALLY experienced accuracy degradation in a gun that you have routinely cleaned from the muzzle?

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Yes in reverse. I have shortened or counterbored numerous barrels on military surplus rifles that had very visible cleaning rod damage. None of these shot very well with damaged muzzles. After removing the damaged area they all shot noticeably better.

For normal applications cleaning from the muzzle with a bore guide and a quality rod you will not damage the bore. When you get into the bench rest crowd most will not pull a patch or a brass or nylon brush back thru the muzzle.

Personally I only run hardened steel rods. Laps are always made from a softer material than what is being lapped. Reality is if the rod doesn't touch the bore it can't do any damage.

GI jointed steel or jointed aluminum rods are the worst and IMHO should only be used for emergencies.

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Originally Posted by M-Tecs

GI jointed steel or jointed aluminum rods are the worst and IMHO should only be used for emergencies.

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I think the govt. buys those because they are more durable than an Alum. or plastic one.
And if a barrel gets damaged, you just hand it back to the armory, and they give you a new one.

It’s the steel rods that have done all the damage to military surplus guns. I like cleaning from the breech, because all the crud goes out the muzzle and not into the receiver and possibly other parts.

I've heard this, and have taken great care to not damage the crown on my personal rifles, however, I spent 21 years in the military, sent thousands of rounds down the barrel and cleaned both from the breach and muzzle end, not to mention getting rodded on and off the range, all with those G.I segmented rods, with little to no wear I'm aware of. My first duty station I kept a rifle for about 6 years, they get gauged yearly, and only had to have the barrel replaced when I bent it on a jump. After that the longest was three years, but never wore out another barrel, and I've made my gas tube cherry red, many, many, times.

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Most milsurps used very hard steel cleaning rods.

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I also think this is the main reason.
atr

I think this is leftover dogma from the days of soft barrel steel, corrosive primers, even black powder and military surplus weapons. Military recruits are not always carefully instructed and they DO NOT always take care when cleaning their personal weapons. Before non-corrosive primers, firearms were cleaned frequently, BUT MAYBE not carefully and many were cleaned from the muzzle rather than disassembling, particularly all the lever guns. Some believe it is easier to re-crown a barrel, rather than fix a throat damaged by cleaning. My Savage 99's cannot be cleaned from the breech without removing the barrel or using a pull-thru. Care in cleaning and proper equipment is more important than muzzle or breech. What about all those cartridge single shot rifles that use a false muzzle for the bullet and a breach seated cartridge. A rod was pushed through the bore every shot so care and technique/alignment is more important.

Very good ^^^ points !

Muzzleloaders by design are cleaned from the muzzle and the "unbreakable" fiber glass rods will definitely cause wear if used without a bore guide of some kind.

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Originally Posted by Shawlerbrook

I think a lot depends on how the cleaning is done and especially the cleaning rod material. Most milsurps used very hard steel cleaning rods. A softer brass or other materials and careful use would probably take decades of shooting and cleaning to do harm.

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Other way 'round. Brass and aluminum rods will embed grit, a hard steel one won't. Harry Pope said it, I believe it, and that settles it.

I make bore guides by cutting the base off of .223 cases. Or .308 for the larger bores.

Actually, I don't clean them that often to be a problem, black powder yes definitely clean after shooting, With smokeless corrosive free primers not so much.
I haven't had any problems, if you're anal, knock yourself out, just be careful, of course they will be willing to sell you a new gun.
I like my homemade cleaners with the surplus German wicks, Artificial sinew, fishing sinkers and a piece of the German wick folded in half ran thru the bore a couple times and I'm good.
Of course, if it needs more, I will deal with it.

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Originally Posted by winger ed.

good point.

I'm a big dewey rod guy, and always wipe off the rod each time it comes out of the bore just for that reason.

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ditto

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Originally Posted by elmacgyver0

Actually, I don't clean them that often to be a problem, black powder yes definitely clean after shooting, With smokeless corrosive free primers not so much.

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once every winter whether they need them or not-- bore snake after each range trip

There was a time, of course, when every rifle had to be aggressively cleaned even if it had been fired only once. Which lasted until the advent of non-corrosive primers, which is within living memory for some of us. That's why you find old black-powder guns and even 20th century Winchesters with the rifling gone at the muzzle. And why Stevens among others so loudly touted that THEIR guns could easily be cleaned from the breech.

Now most guns (excepting of course those fired with Holy Black) can go a whole season with nothing but a pass or two with a bore snake.

Cleaning requirements for the average hunter or shooter are minimal at best. Benchrest shooters and long-range competitors like NRA Highpower, F-Class, PRS or serious prairie dog shooters have a much different set of requirements. There methods work for the average hunter or shooter, however the minimalist techniques used by the average hunter don't work so well for the serious shooter. Lots of variables come into play but the general consensus is accuracy starts to drop off after 80 to 100 rounds on 308 class rifles with match quality barrels.

I have been asked to rebarrel numerous hunting rifles with relatively low round counts due to accuracy loss. Properly copper and carbon removal restored accuracy.

I totally about cleaning requirements. I had an acquaintance who was moaning about the fact that the barrel on his Marlin 336 was 'shot out' several years ago. He couldn't keep his shots on a paper plate at 50 yards, rested on the hood of his truck. When I asked him when was the last time he cleaned it - really cleaned it, I got the deer in the headlights look. I took his rifle home and gave the bore a thorough cleaning, and it was absolutely disreputably dirty. I spent more time than I should have, cleaning someone else's rifle but it eventually came clean. Then, I made the guy buy some real targets, and go to a rifle range and shoot it off the bench. He was delighted with how well his 'shot-out' barrel performed! No, I won't clean it for you again, was my response.

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Originally Posted by Winger Ed.

Even in the old days, some high end octagon barrel BP rifles had a custom guide that came with them.

The arms maker cut a inch or so off the barrel, put little pins in it, and matching holes in the muzzle.

When using the ram rod, you'd put the end piece back on to protect the crown.

After the rod was pulled out, you'd take it off and keep it in your pocket.

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While the 1800's false muzzle can certainly be used when cleaning, it's original/main purpose was to ensure seating a conical bullet straight in the muzzle of percussion target rifles.

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One thing about modern-day competition shooters ...... they are shooting j-words which necessarily leave copper in the barrel, and it builds up pretty quickly. They HAVE to clean frequently and aggressively. We cast bullet shooters don't have that problem, as long as we shoot properly sized bullets with smokeless powder.

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Originally Posted by pietro

While the 1800's false muzzle can certainly be used when cleaning, it's original/main purpose was to ensure seating a conical bullet straight in the muzzle of percussion target rifles.

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Very correct except false muzzles were widely used with cartridge guns in the days of BP or Duplex loads. It was believed that loading from the muzzle on cartridge guns was more accurate than breech loading due to better alignment and pushing any remaining fouling back.

http://www.hallowellco.com/false_muz...et_starter.htm

https://www.rockislandauction.com/de...or-no-52-rifle

https://www.gunsinternational.com/gu...n_id=101217214

https://www.singleshotexchange.com/c...shots-my-pope/

https://www.pbase.com/halp/hartfordpope

https://www.pbase.com/halp/pope_ballard

https://www.morphyauctions.com/james...-barrel-46021/

A version of false muzzles is making a specialized comeback today. The smokeless long-range muzzleloaders using full sized jacketed bullets use a section of barrel as a push through die to engrave the bullet and slightly undersize it. They turn a taper on the OD and use a matching taper part to compress the ID of the bore so the bullet can be loaded from the muzzle using realistic pressures. That is done on a reloading press.

The original 1840 patent by Alvan Clark for the “Moveable Loading-Muzzle for Rifles https://patentimages.storage.googlea...51b/US1565.pdf

I clean my lever actions from the muzzle. I find a case that fits the bore but doesn't fall through. Drill the primer pocket to accept the rod diameter. You're good to go.

My dad, who was a tool and die maker, told me that brass rods, being soft, get charged with grime and grit. That is what wears the muzzle--acts like a lap but mildly of course. Damage can be done over MANY cleanings. Steel, being harder does not pick up grime and grit. Pull your rods through a cloth to wipe off the contaminants.

On firearms that need to be cleaned from the muzzle several thing help prevent damage
1) use a good well fitting muzzle guide
2) use the biggest dia rod possible for the caliber
3) use the shortest rod possible for the firearm
4)a good rifle vise or cradle to support the firearm.
5) wipe the rod often to keep clean.

The larger dia and shorter rod reduce its flexing, the bore guide keeps it centered. The vise or cradle supports thee firearm in a stable secure way. this can be as simple as a card board box with Vees cut in each end to rest it in.Here also consider cleaning with the rifle upside down to keep solvent from flowing into actions and stocks. wiping the rod removes the abrasive crud getting it away before it can cause damage.

The dewy service rifle rods are a good example. The ones for the M1A are a good example, around .280 dia for a 30 cal bore ans short like 22" long a much stiffer rod with a good smooth bearing handle.