How to establish providence of a firearm?

My dad showed me a shotgun that he says was once owned by Jack O'Connor.

He said he bought it from a local gun shop in 1964 when Jack O'Connor lived in the area and put the shotgun on consignment. My dad bought it for $500. Shop was Lolo Sporting Goods, in Lewiston, Idaho.

Dad then sold it to a buddy who had to have it. Buddy proceeded to have engraving work done on it to honor Jack. Dad then buys it back a few years later. And now it has been sitting in a safe for decades.

He contacted Browning and they said they have no record of the shotgun being sold to Jack O'Connor.

Dad said that Jack was gifted many firearms by different people and companies, so it makes sense that there is no record of it being purchased by him.

I love the shotgun, and think it's priceless. Dad said that if he could prove it was once owned by Jack O'Connor, then it would be worth quite a bit of money.

Anybody ever track down the history of a firearm?

I have not. But I would begin by searching through everything he had written, looking for references or photographs of it.


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Originally Posted by Idaho45guy

My dad showed me a shotgun that he says was once owned by Jack O'Connor.

He said he bought it from a local gun shop in 1964 when Jack O'Connor lived in the area and put the shotgun on consignment. My dad bought it for $500. Shop was Lolo Sporting Goods, in Lewiston, Idaho.

Dad then sold it to a buddy who had to have it. Buddy proceeded to have engraving work done on it to honor Jack. Dad then buys it back a few years later. And now it has been sitting in a safe for decades.

He contacted Browning and they said they have no record of the shotgun being sold to Jack O'Connor.

Dad said that Jack was gifted many firearms by different people and companies, so it makes sense that there is no record of it being purchased by him.

I love the shotgun, and think it's priceless. Dad said that if he could prove it was once owned by Jack O'Connor, then it would be worth quite a bit of money.

Anybody ever track down the history of a firearm?

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Some years back a colleague of mine's granddad -- who resided near Detroit, Michigan -- passed, and they went to help clean out his remaining worldly goods. "Jim" saw an old scattergun which he took and gifted to me. Not too rusty, it was a Model 1897 and its barrel was pretty full of what looked like cob-webs and whatever they call those things spiders make with captured insects.
Anyhoos, I took it to a local gunsmith to have it safety checked (and cleaned up ;)) who rang me four or five days later to advise he cannot legally work on it; I should ring him right before I come pick it up; and, he'll stand it outside his shop door upon seeing my pickup. "Huh?" He told me that this scattergun was such that if the trigger was held, with each pump it would fire a shell. He would have to "fix" this if he worked on it -- hence, it was not entered in his book other than "returned to customer" with nothing more...
Gunsmith died of a heart attack a few years ago, so I'm not doing a kiss-and-tell... I contacted two different Winchester historians who each told me that this gun had at one time belonged to the city police department, for use (if necessary) during the days of rum-running and other gang activity. I checked back with Jim who immediately stated that his wife's granddad was in fact a LEO for city police in his younger days.
I wish I still had this gun... Gunsmith had advised, too, that "pigeon loads" would be the stoutest he'd fire in it -- the serial number indicated it had been manufactured in 1906.
geo

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Originally Posted by georgerkahn

Anyhoos, I took it to a local gunsmith to have it safety checked (and cleaned up ;)) who rang me four or five days later to advise he cannot legally work on it; I should ring him right before I come pick it up; and, he'll stand it outside his shop door upon seeing my pickup. "Huh?" He told me that this scattergun was such that if the trigger was held, with each pump it would fire a shell. He would have to "fix" this if he worked on it -- hence, it was not entered in his book other than "returned to customer" with nothing more...
geo

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Yep! I don't know when the disconnector became mandatory but since that gun didn't have one, the smith wasn't touching it.

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Originally Posted by georgerkahn

Some years back a colleague of mine's granddad -- who resided near Detroit, Michigan -- passed, and they went to help clean out his remaining worldly goods. "Jim" saw an old scattergun which he took and gifted to me. Not too rusty, it was a Model 1897 and its barrel was pretty full of what looked like cob-webs and whatever they call those things spiders make with captured insects.
Anyhoos, I took it to a local gunsmith to have it safety checked (and cleaned up ;)) who rang me four or five days later to advise he cannot legally work on it; I should ring him right before I come pick it up; and, he'll stand it outside his shop door upon seeing my pickup. "Huh?" He told me that this scattergun was such that if the trigger was held, with each pump it would fire a shell. He would have to "fix" this if he worked on it -- hence, it was not entered in his book other than "returned to customer" with nothing more...
Gunsmith died of a heart attack a few years ago, so I'm not doing a kiss-and-tell... I contacted two different Winchester historians who each told me that this gun had at one time belonged to the city police department, for use (if necessary) during the days of rum-running and other gang activity. I checked back with Jim who immediately stated that his wife's granddad was in fact a LEO for city police in his younger days.
I wish I still had this gun... Gunsmith had advised, too, that "pigeon loads" would be the stoutest he'd fire in it -- the serial number indicated it had been manufactured in 1906.
geo

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This is sarcasm ?
Or there is actually somebody calling himself a 'gunsmith' this stupid ?

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Originally Posted by yovinny

This is sarcasm ?
Or there is actually somebody calling himself a 'gunsmith' this stupid ?

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sounds like a decent gunsmith to me, not somebody out to start problems that dont need to be started. I have a gunsmith friend that if needed would come to my house and work on a gun that he would not want in his shop for reasons like this. the world needs more stand up guys like this

Not trying to be a spelling nazi but it’s provenance. I’ve luckily found a provenance for a Webley-Wilkinson 1900 revolver through Wilkinson Sword. If the manufacturer doesn’t have a record you’re pretty much at a dead end. If it was some kind of presentation weapon and you knew who did the work that might be an angle. Retailers generally don’t keep sales records. You could research stories by and photos of Jack O’Connor for mention or an image of your sg. Can’t imagine a real gunsmith that wouldn’t have known ‘97s slamfire as do M12s and Marlin pumps. Good luck on your search.

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Originally Posted by rancher1913

sounds like a decent gunsmith to me, not somebody out to start problems that dont need to be started. I have a gunsmith friend that if needed would come to my house and work on a gun that he would not want in his shop for reasons like this. the world needs more stand up guys like this

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No,, its a feature, not a defect.. So he sounds like he's pretty stupid actually.
No Winchester 97 ever had a disconnect.
No Winchester model 12 ( arguably the most popular shotgun in the USA for 50yrs) ever had a disconnect.
No original Ithaca pump gun ever had a disconnect.
What about SAA's ? Also in the refuse to touch catagory because the pins on the hammer and could be lowered on a primer ?
I could go on,, but I think you should be able to grasp the issue from this,, or your just being obtuse.

I have several shotguns and have had pump 22 rifles that had no disconnect , perfectly legal , just like firearms pre 1968 no serial numbers still legal .

Rossi copy of a winchester 22 no disconnect on the one I owned , pumps have to be cycled they are not semi auto or full auto .

As to the engraving that being done after ownership shows nothing and changes firearm in my eyes , many a story on who owned a firearm that can not be proven .

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Originally Posted by rancher1913

sounds like a decent gunsmith to me, not somebody out to start problems that dont need to be started. I have a gunsmith friend that if needed would come to my house and work on a gun that he would not want in his shop for reasons like this. the world needs more stand up guys like this

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He sounds like a a decent guy who knows his limitations. He also sounds like the very last guy you should ever be asking about a shotgun. Infact it's tough to imagine anyone with the title not knowing anything about them.

The firearms museum in Cody, Wy. does point of sale tracing on some guns. Membership supports the museum and the service is for members. It's a good thing to support this museum in general and the services it offers are a nice bonus.

Going on the facts you've given-- first, is Lolo's still in business? If so, they would have a record of where they obtained the shotgun. Next, locate close relatives of Jack and see if any of them remember the gun. Also, as he was a famous writer, perhaps you might find another writer of that era who is still alive, or one of his hunting associates to ask about the gun. Although he is most remembered for his advocacy of the .270 Win. rifle, reading through all his many articles and books might turn up a reference to the shotgun or its use. In other words, detective work.

DG

Having worked with museums and collectors for several decades, one thing that was universally agreed to, was provenance is the easiest thing to fake for any item. One local shop years ago sold Jesse James revolver over and over. Different gun each time.
Gun writers are sent many guns for review. Some pretty much extort a company for one. We experienced that with a writer going to Africa, who demanded a rifle immediately, or promised to bad mouth the company.
So, just so you know, the writers never, or seldom return a reviewed gun to a company. There may be a chance a particular gun passed through someones hands, but that doesn't necessarily make it special or more valuable. I traded a revolver from Patrick McManus years ago, and it was priced as any other gun would have been. It went for regular market price when I sold it.
On the other hand, I looked at an O3A3 last summer that has Elmer Keith's inspectors stamp on it. The owner thought it was made of gold and had it priced hundreds over many other rifles in much better condition. I sure wouldn't pay a premium for it.

Think Winchester 61 pump 22's are the same way, just like the Model 12 shotguns

Lolos is indeed still in business , changed hands at least once I am sure , but there was no requirement to record acquisition or disposition of any firearms prior to the GCA of 68 , Lolos was pretty nice when I was there a long time ago now , they do sell on Gunbroker and some years ago there was an article in the liberal paper of Lewiston about the owner at that time being busted for selling meth and his story of he was a snitch for the local law , which they said he had been but was not at the time in question .

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Originally Posted by yovinny

No,, its a feature, not a defect.. So he sounds like he's pretty stupid actually.
No Winchester 97 ever had a disconnect.
No Winchester model 12 ( arguably the most popular shotgun in the USA for 50yrs) ever had a disconnect.
No original Ithaca pump gun ever had a disconnect.
What about SAA's ? Also in the refuse to touch catagory because the pins on the hammer and could be lowered on a primer ?
I could go on,, but I think you should be able to grasp the issue from this,, or your just being obtuse.

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its only a feature in the hands of law enforcement, just like a full auto, in the hands of a private person or more importantly in a ffl's shop, it could get you into trouble, and a lot of gunsmiths will "confiscate" an unsafe or illegal gun and you are out everything. I was under the impression this was what you were talking about

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Originally Posted by yovinny

No,, its a feature, not a defect.. So he sounds like he's pretty stupid actually.
No Winchester 97 ever had a disconnect.
No Winchester model 12 ( arguably the most popular shotgun in the USA for 50yrs) ever had a disconnect.
No original Ithaca pump gun ever had a disconnect.
What about SAA's ? Also in the refuse to touch catagory because the pins on the hammer and could be lowered on a primer ?
I could go on,, but I think you should be able to grasp the issue from this,, or your just being obtuse.

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Spot on with your analysis. Since the so-called gunsmith has passed that would indicate he was old enough to have worked on older firearms, and he should have been aware of the 10's of millions of manual operated firearms that were designed without a disconnector.

I started doing trigger jobs on mostly model 12's for trap shooters at the age of 14 in 1974. I have done a couple 97's. Total it's well over 50. I heard about the disconnector "defect" for 50 plus years and yes, it is 100% BS and ignorance. If a 14 kid knows about some firearms not having a disconnect it's truly sad a so-called gunsmith doesn't have the same knowledge level of a 14-year-old gun geek back in 1974.

As to the provenance trail that is long past being viable.

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Originally Posted by rancher1913

a lot of gunsmiths will an unsafe or illegal gun and you are out everything.

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Not even close to being legal for a gunsmith to "confiscate" an unsafe firearm. Unsafe is highly subjective. It might be truly unsafe to fire yet 100% safe as a non-firing display. The gunsmith has ZERO legal rights to "confiscate" said firearm.

If truly illegal like an illegally modified full auto they will contact the BATF directly. The BATF may confiscate and or make an arrest of the owner depending on the circumstances. Recently a gentleman purchased an AR in an FTF deal. He did get a bill of sale. When he went to fire it dumped the complete mag. He brought it into the shop for repair. The BATF took the FA parts, allowed the owner to take the gun back when repaired and upon turning a copy the Bill of Sale over to the BATF.

Thanks for the replies! Providence/provenance... Oops! Thanks for the correction.

I figured if my dad couldn't get provenance for it, and he was actually a friend of Jack's, then it was probably a lost cause. Will still make a nice story about the shotgun, though.

It's very beautiful...

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Originally Posted by Der Gebirgsjager

Going on the facts you've given-- first, is Lolo's still in business? If so, they would have a record of where they obtained the shotgun. Next, locate close relatives of Jack and see if any of them remember the gun. Also, as he was a famous writer, perhaps you might find another writer of that era who is still alive, or one of his hunting associates to ask about the gun. Although he is most remembered for his advocacy of the .270 Win. rifle, reading through all his many articles and books might turn up a reference to the shotgun or its use. In other words, detective work.

DG

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That was in 1964 and 4 years before record keeping was required.

Lots of FFL destroy the records after 20 years. Some never do.

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/how-...atf-forms-4473

How long are licensees required to maintain ATF Forms 4473?
Licensees shall retain each ATF Form 4473 for a period of not less than 20 years after the date of sale or disposition. Where a licensee has initiated a National Instant Background Check System (NICS) check for a proposed firearms transaction, but the sale, delivery, or transfer of the firearm is not made, the licensee shall record any transaction number on the Form 4473, and retain the Form 4473 for a period of not less than 5 years after the date of the NICS inquiry.

[18 U.S.C. 923(g)(1)(A); 27 CFR 478.129(b)]

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Originally Posted by rancher1913

its only a feature in the hands of law enforcement, just like a full auto, in the hands of a private person or more importantly in a ffl's shop, it could get you into trouble, and a lot of gunsmiths will "confiscate" an unsafe or illegal gun and you are out everything. I was under the impression this was what you were talking about

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Anyone who honestly believes this,,, is probably not smart enough to own firearms.

That doesn't necessarily mean that they wouldn't have a record anyway, ledger of funds paid out for tax purposes to whom, or verification in the form of receipts or memory. I've got several firearms that I acquired prior to the GCA and can tell you either by memory or sales receipt exactly where I got them, and those that I no longer own, exactly where they went. I imagine it's that way with many people, and it doesn't hurt to ask.......?

DG

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Originally Posted by yovinny

Anyone who honestly believes this,,, is probably not smart enough to own firearms.

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the same can be said for those who feel the need to constantly put down others

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Originally Posted by rancher1913

the same can be said for those who feel the need to constantly put down others

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Come on now. Even today, you don't think an actual gunsmith sees a pump action without a disconnector at least a few times a month? Were any pump actions of any kind made with a trigger disconnector before the 1950's? I can't think of one. Winchesters model 97 and 12, probably the most common shotguns of the first half of the 20th century don't. Remington made a lot of variations, but their model 31 doesn't. Ithaca's model 37 doesn't. As far as I can tell, the Remington 870 is the first pump action, at least popular one, that featured a trigger disconnector. It's almost a shame that old shotguns are now considered a feature, when in reality the trigger disconnector is the feature. There's no functional reason to have a trigger disconnector, it's just an unnecessary part for some kind of perceived safety reason.

The point being, there's no way a "gunsmith" has never encountered a pump action without a disconnector. He might be a good guy, but there's no way he is a gunsmith.

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Originally Posted by Idaho45guy

Thanks for the replies! Providence/provenance... Oops! Thanks for the correction.

I figured if my dad couldn't get provenance for it, and he was actually a friend of Jack's, then it was probably a lost cause. Will still make a nice story about the shotgun, though.

It's very beautiful...

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I was thinking that must be some shotgun, if it cost $500 used, in 1964. With inflation, that's over $4,000 now. Thank you for posting photos; that is a nice gun!

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Originally Posted by megasupermagnum

Come on now. Even today, you don't think an actual gunsmith sees a pump action without a disconnector at least a few times a month? Were any pump actions of any kind made with a trigger disconnector before the 1950's? I can't think of one. Winchesters model 97 and 12, probably the most common shotguns of the first half of the 20th century don't. Remington made a lot of variations, but their model 31 doesn't. Ithaca's model 37 doesn't. As far as I can tell, the Remington 870 is the first pump action, at least popular one, that featured a trigger disconnector. It's almost a shame that old shotguns are now considered a feature, when in reality the trigger disconnector is the feature. There's no functional reason to have a trigger disconnector, it's just an unnecessary part for some kind of perceived safety reason.

The point being, there's no way a "gunsmith" has never encountered a pump action without a disconnector. He might be a good guy, but there's no way he is a gunsmith.

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my point was that he obviously has had problems with things like this and did not want the liability. just because you think a gun is ok does not mean the atf will think a gun is ok. my friend I talked about would not allow that gun in his shop, he would come here and work on it, unless he made it safe to use and that might ruin the gun, he can not take the chance the atf picks that week to audit him and some green agent wants to make a name for himself, they had one try to confiscate some full auto's even though he has the correct ffl to handle them, cost him a lot of hassle. safe to use being a relative term, whats safe to you verses whats safe to a bureaucrat.

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Originally Posted by rancher1913

my point was that he obviously has had problems with things like this and did not want the liability. just because you think a gun is ok does not mean the atf will think a gun is ok. my friend I talked about would not allow that gun in his shop, he would come here and work on it, unless he made it safe to use and that might ruin the gun, he can not take the chance the atf picks that week to audit him and some green agent wants to make a name for himself, they had one try to confiscate some full auto's even though he has the correct ffl to handle them, cost him a lot of hassle. safe to use being a relative term, whats safe to you verses whats safe to a bureaucrat.

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So, he doesn't know the laws and regulations governing the business he is in????? He also gives out misinformation based on his wants and needs not on the laws or regulations????? That's odd since he apparently holds an NFA firearms Form 3 FFL. They tend to be more knowledgeable that the average FFL holder.

As to an BATF audit they mostly compare the books. If they do look at individual firearms the laws are very clear as to what is legal and what is not legal and pump shotguns without a disconnector are 100% LEGAL. The BATF just can't pull stuff out of the air.

The more you inform us about his business practices the deeper the hole gets as to him being a sorry excuse as a so-called gunsmith.

I would also worry about a "gunsmith" that says a 1906 Model 97 should only fire dove loads. Lots of old 97s have killed duck, geese and deer with buckshot.

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Originally Posted by rancher1913

the same can be said for those who feel the need to constantly put down others

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Not a put down,,a simple fact..and I stand by it..
Once again,, in case you've lost track of what was said...

'If you honestly believe only the Police should be allowed to own a pump shotgun'..

Your probably not smart enough to safely own firearms...

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Originally Posted by Duckiller

I would also worry about a "gunsmith" that says a 1906 Model 97 should only fire dove loads. Lots of old 97s have killed duck, geese and deer with buckshot.

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That is another myth pushed by less than knowledge people. The 12-gauge max chamber pressure 11,500 PSI except for the 3 1/2". Reality is lots of the light trap and dove loads use faster powders and actually have higher peak pressures than the so-called high base loads.

I think a shotgun that beautiful would be worth a lot no matter who it belonged to. It is a Browning.

Buy the gun not the story is the collectors axiom.