.577-.450 Martini-Henry loads. Pached & unpatched

I’m not new to reloading, but I am very new to this site, and I have never cast my own bullets. Then I ran into the Martini Henry Rifle. I read a lot on reloading this round, maybe too much. I’m looking for opinions on data, bullets size, Powder loads and types, and sourcing the various reloading components.

-bullet diameter and weight, patched and unpatched?
-powder types and substitutes?
-Brass..Bertram, RCC, formed Magtech 24ga?
-Bullet sizing and lube. Method and equipment?
-sourcing everything?

The list goes on! Give me everything you got!

Search for X-Ring Services for dies, brass, and molds

Martyn Robinson - he is on Facebook with his page. Just start with him…

xringservices@yahoo.com try there

Pop and I reloaded many calibers quite happily for many years on a Hornady single stage Lock-N-Load press. . .

. . .until his Martini came home. Then we got a Rock Chucker and pulled the bushing out so we could run the necessarily big 1 1/4-12 dies the round takes. You can make a .416 Rigby fit in a 7/8"=14 die body, but not the .577 Snider, nor it's more famous offspring.

What paper patch mold he ended up with, I do not recall, but 480 grains comes to mind. Wrapped wet and the doused in tumble lube after dried.

You'll need a .468 .470 diameter bullet. British Militaria website has a bunch of info on reloading the 577/450 Martini cartridge. Frank

https://i.imgur.com/X53xURLm.jpg https://i.imgur.com/vsptEjLm.jpg

I use a soft cast bullet of 0.462" dia over 78gn of Wano 2P in either Bertram cases or reformed 24ga Mactec shotshell brass. For lube I use pure Lanotec grease, bit messy but sure stops that fouling clogging up the barrel.

can 24 gauge MAGTEC hulls still be had?

So far I've had the best luck with the Lee hollow base 405 grain bullet for the 45-70 trapdoor patched to .473 - .474 over 25 grains of Trail Boss and a standard large rifle primer. I have a mixture of Kynoch and Ballard Rifle cases. I neck size them using an RCBS 45-70 bullet seating die. I have used the Magtec 24 gauge cases for the Snider but have had poor luck with them as they split after just a couple of firings. I'm going to stick with the Kynoch cases for it.

Im surprised you had trouble with CBC/Magtech cases......I have 100 converted from when they changed over to boxer primers (have CBC berdans ,too)....and have never had any problem....and they have been reloaded over 100 times each .....in fact ,the only losses Ive had are people at the range with sticky fingers......So far a few have loose primer pockets ,which I can seat with finger pressure......but the primers dont fall out after firing.......I never resize the cases ,in fact I dont have dies ,and use a home made set with a shell holder of correct rim shape to suit the shotgun rims of the CBC cases.,and a neck size that barely touches the fired neck ...I use paper patched bullets ,and they are correct size to hold in fired cases.......IMHO ,the main cause of case problems is use of the Lee dies for FLS every reload.

In fact ,the number one rule with old rifle cases costing several dollars each is NEVER resize anything as long as the case fits the chamber and works OK.....If you use paper patch bullets ,they will hold in the neck OK without sizing.......I realize there are some foreign guns with extremely loose necks ,which are better suited to thick lathe turned cases.

https://www.grafs.com/catalog/product/productId/11079

Thanks for all the feedback. I put in an order today with X ring products. Their brass for the Martini Henry and snider rifle have a price thats second to none, as far as my research goes. Reformed 24 gauge Magtech Brass for about $2.60 a casing. I also ordered a bullet mold from him for a patched Martini Henry round. Precision molds is also a site that’s worth a look. He has a huge variety of molds and can custom make almost anything.

Now, since I haven’t cast my first bullet yet, I am looking for lead pots and shopping them out. Currently looking at the Lee line, the pro 4- 20 pound pot. Any thoughts out there?

Does anyone out there have a martini Henry paper patch template available?

My pot holds 70 lbs of alloy you can't have too many boolits.

https://i.imgur.com/W6rXrgD.jpg

So far not mentioned is the use of draught excluder.....by using the 1/2 and 5/8 sizes,reliable ignition is secured with slower burning powders,such as 4198......and IMHO ,this is the biggest advance made in Martini Henry shooting in 180 years.....and before someone says the guns must be used with the unclean black,the Kynoch round for the rifles was loaded with smokeless (cordite) for longer than it was loaded with black.

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Originally Posted by elk hunter

So far I've had the best luck with the Lee hollow base 405 grain bullet for the 45-70 trapdoor patched to .473 - .474 over 25 grains of Trail Boss and a standard large rifle primer. I have a mixture of Kynoch and Ballard Rifle cases. I neck size them using an RCBS 45-70 bullet seating die. I have used the Magtec 24 gauge cases for the Snider but have had poor luck with them as they split after just a couple of firings. I'm going to stick with the Kynoch cases for it.

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Just out of curiosity - is your snider part of the Nepali cache? Some of them look like they were chambered with a corn cob.

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Originally Posted by john.k

So far not mentioned is the use of draught excluder.....by using the 1/2 and 5/8 sizes,reliable ignition is secured with slower burning powders,such as 4198......and IMHO ,this is the biggest advance made in Martini Henry shooting in 180 years.....and before someone says the guns must be used with the unclean black,the Kynoch round for the rifles was loaded with smokeless (cordite) for longer than it was loaded with black.

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"draught excluder" color me clueless. Little more information please?

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Originally Posted by mgreg71

Does anyone out there have a martini Henry paper patch template available?

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https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/brit...te-t19850.html

if they split on you, try annealing them. that is what I would do. I do it to my converted 24 MAG TEC bass, and I have had no split cases . jmho.

some with the corn still on the cob!

The MH patch template links seem to be dead.

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Originally Posted by Shanghai Jack

Just out of curiosity - is your snider part of the Nepali cache? Some of them look like they were chambered with a corn cob.

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No, mine is one of the late purpose built British ones. I annealed the cases prior to forming and don't generally size paper patch cases unless I acquire some fired in other rifles and they will not fit mine or the chamber neck is so large it prevents the use of the proper size bullet. The more recent CBC cases are very thin and I wonder if they changed their brass formula so they are more brittle or perhaps I just got some bad ones. I have 100 older CBC Berdan primed cases that I have loaded many times with black powder, for other guns, and have had no problems.

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Originally Posted by john.k

Im surprised you had trouble with CBC/Magtech cases......I have 100 converted from when they changed over to boxer primers (have CBC berdans ,too)....and have never had any problem....and they have been reloaded over 100 times each .....in fact ,the only losses Ive had are people at the range with sticky fingers......So far a few have loose primer pockets ,which I can seat with finger pressure......but the primers dont fall out after firing.......I never resize the cases ,in fact I dont have dies ,and use a home made set with a shell holder of correct rim shape to suit the shotgun rims of the CBC cases.,and a neck size that barely touches the fired neck ...I use paper patched bullets ,and they are correct size to hold in fired cases.......IMHO ,the main cause of case problems is use of the Lee dies for FLS every reload.

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Agree with that last sentence - I like LEE stuff specially the price but their FLS dies seem too savage on brass to me.
edit further explanation - that was a general comment not specific to the MH

The explanation Ive seen is that Lee dimensioned the die to the smallest chamber they could find in a 577/450.......anyway,IMHO ,the biggest fault it has is the neck is too small.....and added to that ,there is a ledge at the end of the neck.........Its my observation that some of the case collapses happen when the sized case contacts this ledge .....As to neck size .....every rifle Ive ever owned could take a neck that was .510" OD ...the British rifles are very uniform to neck dimensions ,and necks always taper slightly from .510" at the throat to .513 " at the shoulder.........Ive noticed forming cases ,if the neck is left .520" at final size ,about half the force is needed as to size down to .480",which is the Lee die......And this is where the collapses happen ,and the case folds.

I assume the draught excluder is Aussie for "pool noodle" or maybe dacron puff ect. where are the case splits showing up, in the neck or longitudinal on the body?? How far down do you anneal? My heat line is generally at or just below the shoulder, and I have gotten a few splits in the body starting .500 above the rim going up to varying lengths. I have settled on the LEE 400 gr, lubed 480 Ruger, slug at .472+ , or about .005 below as cast.

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Originally Posted by mgreg71

Does anyone out there have a martini Henry paper patch template available?

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Something like these? Designed for a 0.450" diameter bullet, based off of originals.

RRR

Attachment 284703

Attachment 284704

Its called locally "Foam backer rod",and comes in either open or closed cell foam,and polyU or polyE......some is expensive ,some comes in 100yd roll....."so ya pays yer money and takes yer chances"

Do you have a cat?
Especially a medium or long fur cat?
If so, bush your cat, and save the hair, it makes wonderful case filler for all black powder cartridges, when you are using smokeless powder.
Load the powder, then insert a tuff of the cat hair and seat your bullet.
I picked up this tip 60 years ago when I was getting started reloading black powder cartridges from a old hand rifle shooter, who shot those long range buffalo rifle matches.
And no, it does not skink like burnt hair upon firing, as the high temperature of the smokeless powder combusting reduces the hair to ask before the bullet leaves the muzzle.

I shoot MH and especially Sniders using reformed 24 ga boxer primed CBC brass. Works great, no problems at all with split cases. Like everybody else, I only FL resize cases that absolutely will not fit otherwise.
Attachment 285236
L-R MH 480 gr Buffalo Arms swaged Pb pp to .472",
MH 410 gr XRing GG bullet .470";
MH 410 gr XRing GG bullet seated a bit deeper;
Snider 520 gr XRing .600";
Snider 440 gr XRing .600".
All lubed with SPG, all have a milk carton wad, then a foam backer rod as filler, over the powder. The PP MH round also has a 1/4" SPG lube cookie below the bullet, but in the neck.

Thanks for the load info. I have an x-ring order in the works already.

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Originally Posted by fgd135

I shoot MH and especially Sniders using reformed 24 ga boxer primed CBC brass. Works great, no problems at all with split cases. Like everybody else, I only FL resize cases that absolutely will not fit otherwise.
Attachment 285236
L-R MH 480 gr Buffalo Arms swaged Pb pp to .472",
MH 410 gr XRing GG bullet .470";
MH 410 gr XRing GG bullet seated a bit deeper;
Snider 520 gr XRing .600";
Snider 440 gr XRing .600".
All lubed with SPG, all have a milk carton wad, then a foam backer rod as filler, over the powder. The PP MH round also has a 1/4" SPG lube cookie below the bullet, but in the neck.

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Do you use cornmeal filler in your period 577 rounds?

Does everyone use large pistol primers in their MH & .577 rounds? Or are there other substitutes available to do the job, or better?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fgd135

I shoot MH and especially Sniders using reformed 24 ga boxer primed CBC brass. Works great, no problems at all with split cases. Like everybody else, I only FL resize cases that absolutely will not fit otherwise.
Attachment 285236
L-R MH 480 gr Buffalo Arms swaged Pb pp to .472",
MH 410 gr XRing GG bullet .470";
MH 410 gr XRing GG bullet seated a bit deeper;
Snider 520 gr XRing .600";
Snider 440 gr XRing .600".
All lubed with SPG, all have a milk carton wad, then a foam backer rod as filler, over the powder. The PP MH round also has a 1/4" SPG lube cookie below the bullet, but in the neck.

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Whats your powder load with the listed rounds?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fgd135

I shoot MH and especially Sniders using reformed 24 ga boxer primed CBC brass. Works great, no problems at all with split cases. Like everybody else, I only FL resize cases that absolutely will not fit otherwise.
Attachment 285236
L-R MH 480 gr Buffalo Arms swaged Pb pp to .472",
MH 410 gr XRing GG bullet .470";
MH 410 gr XRing GG bullet seated a bit deeper;
Snider 520 gr XRing .600";
Snider 440 gr XRing .600".
All lubed with SPG, all have a milk carton wad, then a foam backer rod as filler, over the powder. The PP MH round also has a 1/4" SPG lube cookie below the bullet, but in the neck.

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Is there a need to worry about the jump space in the chamber for the deeper seated rounds on the MH?

Just for accuracy, it is best to use the larger bullets seated well out to almost contact the rifling. And heavier bullets usually shoot better, within the limitations of the barrel twist of course (which relates to bullet length). And as to those pistol primers, simple: that's what the CBC brass is set up for, rifle primers stand slightly proud.

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Originally Posted by mgreg71

Whats your powder load with the listed rounds?

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With the MH 480 gr bullet, I shoot full charges 85 gr of Goex 1Fg, and also reduced charges of the same, depending on the range I'm planning to shoot. Heresy to some, but there's no reason to destroy your shoulder while shooting at only 100 yards. 65-70 grains work well for that.
Carbine loads (410 gr) are 60-70 grains of Goex 1Fg. As MB mentions, the bullet seated further out is indeed more accurate.
Snider 520 gr. bullet 70 grains of Goex 1Fg, and I have used cream of wheat instead of FBR, at times. I find no accuracy difference, but you might.
440 gr Snider shoots well at reduced ranges, up to 100 yards, with 50-55 grains of Goex 1 Fg, or 2Fg.

Work with Martyn. He can steer you in the right direction. I buy .577/450 brass from him and .577 Snyder. Always the best quality and a very nice guy to talk to. You can never go wrong.

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Originally Posted by DxieLandMan

Work with Martyn. He can steer you in the right direction. I buy .577/450 brass from him and .577 Snyder. Always the best quality and a very nice guy to talk to. You can never go wrong.

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I’m already working with him. I put in an order for Brass and a mold about a month ago. Does anyone have an opinion on Pyrodex versus black powder?

Unless you absolutely have to use Pyrodex, avoid it!