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With all the talk of one state after another going to only copper for hunting, I was wondering how copper bullets were made. I am thinking they will be swaged, but I could be wrong. Can they be cast or made on a high production lathe or mill. Anyone have an answer. Maybe there are different ways.
If it is just a prohibition on lead projectiles, why not cast up a bismuth boolit?
Most of the solid copper bullets I have handled have been individually machined.
a lot of them are made on swiss screw machines.
Fort Scott Munitions makes their solid copper bullets on lathes. Lots and lots of lathes.....
Hope this helps.
Fred
There’s a big difference between casting lead and casting copper.
I had a friend who said that he made 17cal bullets when the 17 Rem first come out as projectiles were hart to get. I understand he started with copper wire and drilled a small hole in one end then swaged them to shape. Regards Stephen
Automatic Screw Machines...
I’m not thinking about doing it myself. I was just wondering if one day the major ammunition producers started doing it, how it would be done. Might there be any economy of scale, that some day would make them available for plinking? There are already some rumblings about bismuth not being much healthier than lead.
The spot price on copper is pretty high at this point. Even without being turned into a bullet that much material is rather expensive.Quote:
Originally Posted by GregLaROCHE
or cast them out of zinc like some guys have done.Quote:
Originally Posted by HumptyDumpty
Bronze tips ... having the mold and the furnace to melt, you can not make bullets?
The Barnes XPB .500 S&W Mag 325gr is solid copper. Does not appear to be made on a lathe. They have slight surface texture, like they've been tumbled or some other manufacturing process.
https://www.barnesbullets.com/bullets/xpb/
Attachment 284893
They also cost $1.55 EACH.
You could use copper jackets filled with copper powder. If you talking about making a solid copper bullets, that’d be a different story...
I believe most if the all copper bullets are turned from bar stock thats very close to size. A screw machine would do but even better would be a multiple spindle machine, On the screw machine tolerances would be harder to hold, My guess is a small cnc lathe with bar feeder and tool changer. For a standard non hollow point bullet thus would be a 2-3 tool program. running with full coolant it would probably drop a bullet every 2 seconds into the tray. This set up would also be easy to make changes / improvements with a change to the program. With the feeder machine could run unattended or little attention. A 10' bar of copper would probably make 110 bullets or so since you will lose roughly 7" to the cut off tool.
Swaging solid copper bullets would require a press of heavy ton age and very expensive dies, Probably 200 ton to form ogive and boat tails.
Bismuth, zinc and other castable materials are also harder than desired an can be brittle, abrasive or require dangerous fluxes. Aluminum can be cast in the home shop and might be doable as well as some of the mish metals that are used in die casting but these material almost require a pressurized casing (shot tube) to get proper grain structure and air out.
For the home tinkerer they can be turned on a standard engine lathe with form tooling but set up and cutter grinds will be critical.
IF a person had a 25 ton press and dies that withstood the force copper wires should be usable to make a bullet of pure copper that would peel apart in a soft target.
I do it with .185 lead wire in a 45 short jacket I do not have the pressure needed for copper .Attachment 285097
I've just commissioned a copper bullet design. So I can judge whether its worth getting them made to sell on or just for me to hunt with.
Once i get a price i will let you know.
For the home booliteer I'd think, as mentioned above, either bismuth or zinc are the obvious choices if lead becomes scarce or even illegal to use. They both have relatively low melting points and are castable in standard moulds. For commercial bullet production I'd have to think that swaging would be the only way to keep costs down. It takes a big press and substantial dies but would waste a lot less copper.
Setting up to machine using CNC lathes is pretty easy, repeatable and fairly high production rates but the amount of copper waste is very large. The chips could be collected and would have scrap value but still high waste/bullet which = cost.
Possibly some enterprising individual or company like Rotometals will come up with a castable alloy that meets legal/environmental requirements but is similar to lead for casting. As the saying goes... "Necessity is the mother of invention!"
Longbow
I believe the big press would be to slow to be truly productive, Our end presses ere roughly 50-70 ton and ran at around 400 strokes per minute, this was coining and blanking can ends. Very light steel and not a lot of profile. The 100 ton presses at the last shop ran at 15-20 strokes per minute. I believe this is closer to the press it would take to swage solid copper bullets.
Starting with 5/16 copper for a 30 cal bullet there wouldnt be a lot of chips. mostly from the ogive and boat tail if there was one. Im thinking 2-3 bullets to make a teaspoon of chips.I believe the speed would beat out the chips produced
forging may produce a good bullet also
Just wondering if anyone has tried/used copper powder, to substitute a lead core, and guessing that you would require a longer jackets to achieve a similar weight to a lead cored jacketed Bullet.
If you have…. Any issues with seating/compressing the copper powder
Just thinking would it be possible to make a copper Bullet with a copper jacket-powdered core
Thanks Guys for your input
Quote:
Originally Posted by Copperman
Copperman; you seem to be describing a process/products available from Dave Corbin: http://corbins.com/powder.htm
About 20 years ago; the Department of Energy was making a big deal of having moved to Copper Powder/Sintered bullets for their Security Forces as a "Green" as well as a safety measure to prevent ricochets/other potential collateral damage should shooting event occur. I have not made nor used the Powder/Sintered style bullets; let us know how it works if you go down that trail.
Me and Bro were trying to cut down copper solids .375 cal for use in 375 Win. We have found no satisfactory way to do it. Not even on lathe. The bullet wants to smear instead of cutting cleanly.
I’m sure you can fool around and part one, then face with whatever gets job done. We wanted method to do them by the hundred.
From reading the old literature on machining copper, try milk for a coolant/cutting "oil." Do not forget to clean your lathe IMMEDIATELY afterwards. Copper is gummy and grabby, from what I read. You might want to look at those old books for angles and such on the cutting tools, and what would be proper cutting speeds, too. Though I think swaging will be your best bet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Drm50
Bill
There is a small company in Montana that has "Figured This Out" when it comes to machining bullets from Copper. Hammer Bullets.
https://hammerbullets.com/about-us/
Not sure what they are doing different than those trying to do the same in their home shops. My dad machined gun barrels in the 1960's - 155MM to 16 Inch barrels - that skill skipped my generation in the family.
Depends on your cutters. Copper does want to smear. I use very positive cutter geometry. And very small tool nose radius. With carbide tooling I calculate 800 surface feet per minute. Which doesn't matter cause. Most likely the machine will be maxed out on spindle rpms. Any kind of water soluble coolant works for me.