Should I add tin to range lead?

I have some range scrap ingots bought on this forum, they are nice clean stuff, I am using to cast .44 and .45 SWC for revolver loads. The alloy tests 4B with the pencils. I flux with sawdust and am bottom pouring. I am having trouble with getting nice sharp square corners on the bands. There are no wrinkles on the noses, but even casting as fast and hot as I can (power turned all the way up on the old Lee Drip=a=Matic) about half of the bullets just don't have sharp bands so I have a keeper rate of about 50% or slightly less. My moulds (Lyman and RCBS) look fine and I am pretty careful about keeping them clean. I was wondering if adding a little tin to the alloy might help?

Anyadvice appreciated, thanks, namsag.

Are your revolver loads top end? Have you tested the culls vs. the keepers to find an actual difference? You said you are bottom pouring, in contact with the spout? Size of sprue? Others with a similar problem have enlarged the sprue cutter hole, and ensured that the venting is adequate, some by relieving the top corner of the mold block.

Clean the spout , I warm molds on hot plate , cast with range scrap do not add anything , I do not pour with spout to hole I keep it down below and flow at a constant rate by opening and closing and amount of lead level in pot .

Steel molds , get them up to temp and alloy at temp with thermometer or a pid

I'd be sure the spout is good & clean to insure a maximum flow first.

If that doesn't do it, and you can't get the heat up until the boolits frost a little, then ease it off,
ya could try a little bump of tin to get a better fill out.

Other than that, I'd look into the pot itself not getting hot enough.
Cranked all the way up, you should get frosting and fining in the vent slots/seams even if the mold isn't real hot.

Thanks guys.

For the .44 loads, I am just using the Skeeter Skelton loads of 7.5 gr Unique. For the .45 Colt, I am wanting to push them about 1000 fps with 9.0 of Unique but they actually group better with 8.5 gr. So I guess that's the load.

I started with the mould about 1/2" below the spout but I have moved up to pretty much touching, it has cut down a little bit on the problem.

I did not mention, with the knob turned up all the way the temp in the alloy is just a little over 700* on my RCBS thermometer. The pot is pretty old, maybe this is a good time to get something else.

On the spout, I do have problems with it dripping if I let it get much below half full. I know this is supposed to mean the alloy had junk in it but this stuff is really clean, and I don't know how I could flux it or clean it any better.

I find my spout drips less on a lee if I ream the spout and clean it , flows better to I seldom need a mold that close to spout , just the way I cast . If thats top end on temp then it needs a part , everyone has a way that works for them , I have different molds that have to be hotter or more or less flow .

I'm sorry, I didn't catch if you'd cast good boolits with these molds before, using other alloy?

I have tin (pewter), so I add it. At least for the range scrap that I mined out of my range's berms, there was no tin when I had BNE XRF a sample, and if none of the good recommendations made above help, a little tin is another approach to fill out issues worth considering.

If you have the tin available add a little and see what happen.

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Originally Posted by Sasquatch-1

If you have the tin available add a little and see what happen.

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That would be my answer too. If the boolits aren't wrinkled and look good other than the edges of the driving bands, add some tin.

With range scrap you never know what’s in it and your batches can vary. If you have some tin available, try adding some in a small batch to see if it helps. You could buy a small amount of a known alloy, that is easy to cast from Roto Metals and see how it works. If it turns out the same, you know you need to look elsewhere, than the alloy.

Use a lot of range lead and have not had an issue but need to have it between 725-750. Adding a little tin may help but think your problem may be temp.

NOTE: All my molds are aluminum, either Lee or NOE.

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Originally Posted by GregLaROCHE

With range scrap you never know what’s in it and your batches can vary. If you have some tin available, try adding some in a small batch to see if it helps. You could buy a small amount of a known alloy, that is easy to cast from Roto Metals and see how it works. If it turns out the same, you know you need to look elsewhere, than the alloy.

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Absolutely. I have a ton (literally) of wheel weights in five gallon buckets, works very successfully. I had occasion for over ten years to work at a local vocational high school, back in the day graphic arts used Linotype metal to print. When they closed down to switch over to computers they were throwing out buckets of Linotype — and I scored them. Have used it for over 20 years to supplement wheel weight lead.

That being said, as the years dragged on and more and more wheel weights were made out of stinking zinc, I discovered Rotometals. I still have buckets of wheel weights for an emergency situation, it I’ll bet every Bullet I’ve cast in the last ten years has been from Rotometals Lyman #2 Bullet casting mix. Finest kind, never an issue.

I’ve found that in my RCBS lead pot (I use a digital thermometfor this..) around 725°-750° works well for me. I also preheat my molds on a hot plate.

Just my $.02 worth, keep casting!

Art

Thanks guys. The moulds do produce some good bullets using the conditions I outlined above, it's just been more of a hit or miss proposition than I would like. The .44 is an RCBS 44-250-K, and the .45s are an RCBS 45-255-SWC and a Lyman 452424E. They were all bought used but in good shape.

There has been another development, I got my brand new RCBS Pro-Melt out of the box, I was going to save it for pure foundry alloys for BPCR bullets and use the Lee pot for the range ingots but these range ingots are clean so I'm not worried about it. There wil be a learning curve with the new pot. There is one thing that will take some getting used to; the pour spout is so far under the thing it's difficult to see what you're doing. I had the temperature up as high as 775* and still having the same problem, not sure what else to do except get a little tin and see what happens.

This is starting to get a little discouraging....

I'm with the experimental types on this one. Add some delta T to the pot/mold and/or toss in a bit of tin (it helps here if you can do the Mad Scientist laugh) and see what the results turn out to be.

Write down how much tin by weight somewhere. At my age that helps a bunch. When I go to Lowe's I do have a shopping list. Frank

Run maximum heat on the new RCBS Pro-Melt. If there is still a fill out problems, its the alloy. Poor fill out can be caused by nearly 100% pure lead. Zinc will do it also.

"Should I add tin to range lead?"

Absolutely.

Most "range lead" is going to be high in antimony content and low in tin content. This is because the majority of cast bullet remains will be from "hard" cast bullets, the lead melted out of jacketed bullets which can contain up to 3% antimony as with many factory swaged bullets. Thus range lead most often is antimony rich and tin poor. I've been using range recovered alloy for many years from numerous outdoor and indoor ranges.

I most often arbitrarily add 2% tin with that and will then add 30 - 40% pure lead for most PB'd pistol cast bullets. That alloy casts quite well with well filled out bullets from my Mag20. I cast with the alloy at 710 - 725 degrees and use a good stream to get the alloy into the cavity very quickly allowing the alloy to roil back up out of the sprue hole a bit. BHN for 10 day old AC'd bullets run 10 - 12. For rifle GC'd bullets used in the 1700 - 2200 fps range in rifles I just add the 2% tin then 20% pure lead and WQ the bullets out of the mould. the BHN of those run 18 +/-.

I believe we should have between 2 and 3 percent Tin in our alloy. Two percent at least, and any over 3 percent is wasteful. The old standard WW+2%SN will contain 2+% Sn, and that is what I am making mostly now. Two parts Pb, one part Lino, and 1% SN, makes about 2 1/3% Sn, 4% Sb, rest Pb. Lovely alloy...

The range scrap i just tested wrinkled unless when the mold was really hot. I actually had to put it on a hot plate while the lead froze between pours. Then the wrinkles stopped. I turned the pot temp up to 780 but that seemed to be less helpful than heating the mold between pours. I was using a 4 cavity brass mold for 165 grain 40 caliber boolits. My range lead tested between 7.4-7.8 48 hours after smelting into ingots using a Lee hardness tester. If you've seen my posts from MSGO, you know I'm a nubie at casting. So, take my comments with a grain of salt.

Retested my RL after 7 days and harness is now in the 11's instead of the 7's.

So who has a good source for easily available tin? Ive heard pewter from goodwill and thrift stores, any other cheap alternatives?

To chime in on topic, COWW and 2-3% tin have never failed me on mold fillout.

YES, add some Tin. Your range scrap probably has NO TIN. I have tested a lot of Range scrap and it is typically 1% Antimony, 99% Lead.

A little (1/2% to 2%) will make all the difference.

Lots of threads about where to find Tin on this forum.

BNE

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Originally Posted by Capt.Red.44

So who has a good source for easily available tin? Ive heard pewter from goodwill and thrift stores, any other cheap alternatives?

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An expensive way is solder. At stained glass shops it is running between $13.00 to $21.00 a pound depending on the tin content. If you are an avid yard sale/flee market shopper you may be able to find some there along with pewter. My best score on pewter was at the old Harpers Ferry Flee Market. I got about 20 lbs for $10.00. The problem was my wife kept half of it for display. Also you may want to check historic events like 18th century market fairs and Rendezvous. I scored 6 goblets for about 30 cents a piece at one.

Add Linotype. The range scrap needs both Antimomy & Tin.

I have been told if you pry the knob off there is an adjusting screw in the stem to adjust the heat range if the pot. Ive never done it or had to but may pay to look.

Roto Metals and MVA both sell 100% bar tin also