Linotype and lyman #2

Looking through the lyman cast boolit book (#5) it calls for many of the boolits to be cast out of these 2 alloys. Now I am aware that this is just there suggestion, but are these alloys really that good?
What I mean is what applications would they have? Isn't lino too hard? Everything I have read on this site says you want something close to 2% tin and antimony for hunting rounds so that you get expansion and they are not brittle.
I have been mixing up some alloys for my 44 mags with the 2% range with slightly higher tin content. This far I have not experienced any leading even with boolits sized to .429.
I would assume you would want the harder lyman #2 for some of the rifle rounds that get cranked up, but isn't that the purpose of a gas check in high speed rifle rounds?
Just trying to figure out why lyman would advocate using such hard alloys. Not to mention the fact that tin and antimony are the more expensive components to these alloys.

Just curious I suppose.
Thanks,
Ken

The older Lyman manuals also recommended sizing to groove diameter too. Seems we've learned a lot since then as casters.

I have settled on 15 bhn as my upper limit for cast boolits. Unless you are trying to push rifle rounds well above 2000 fps there is no need to go higher. And lino type is getting scarce just like wheel weights. Most of the cast boolits I shoot are between 10 and 12.5 bhn.
But I do not load my .357 or .44 mag. to full magnum levels either. Easier on the guns and the wallet.

bullet to gun fit is king.Lyman molds are cut to spec using the Lyman #2 alloy.So Lyman is telling you to get the right size bullet use the #2 alloy.
Tin has got stupid hi in price,Antimoney is getting there so the less you need to use the better.I cast mostly for hand guns from 9 bhn to 12.Wad cutters bneing the soft stuff.12 bhn for 357 mag and 45 cals in the middle of that about 10bhn.

That is just the loading information they used when developing that particular load. Just like any load data it is a guide giving data and information based on the variables they presented, change any of the variables and the data changes.

In my 7 1/2" SBH .44 mag I've personally ran a plain base boolit upto a verified 1600 fps with an alloy of jacketed range lead and just a bit of tin for proper fill. These boolits were super soft and shot pretty poorly but only slightly leaded the barrel. When PCed and slowed down just a bit to 1400fps they shot fine with no leading.

So far my "hunting alloy is 50/50 WW/pure +5% tin. This gives me great expansion and weight retention out of a solid nose at 1500-1800 fps impact velocities when water dropped and great performance when shot out of my SBH at 1350fps using an air cooled HP or CP boolit.

Tin is an important ingredient. I mixed some 50/50 yesterday for my .44 special and was having wrinkles. Forgot to add the tin which in my case is pewter. Came out to 9.8 bhn. These will be powder coated and put over a good charge of Bullseye since I could not find HP 38 locally.

I think Lino was quite prevalent back in those days, so it was used on a regular basis by many casters.

Lyman #2 is a very good alloy, and works well in almost any application.
But Lyman #2 cut 50-50 with pure lead, is also quite good, but may not be the best for very high pressure situations.
Also, Lyman #2 cut 75-25 with Pure Lead (one part Lyman #2, 3 parts Pure) is just fine for low pressure pistol ammo.

With all that said, I personally think Lino it too hard/Brittle for shooting cast boolits ...there are those that claim Lino will wear out a barrel, I'm not smart to explain why that is the case, but I suspect it's true.

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Originally Posted by JonB_in_Glencoe

I think Lino was quite prevalent back in those days, so it was used on a regular basis by many casters.

Lyman #2 is a very good alloy, and works well in almost any application.
But Lyman #2 cut 50-50 with pure lead, is also quite good, but may not be the best for very high pressure situations.
Also, Lyman #2 cut 75-25 with Pure Lead (one part Lyman #2, 3 parts Pure) is just fine for low pressure pistol ammo.

With all that said, I personally think Lino it too hard/Brittle for shooting cast boolits ...there are those that claim Lino will wear out a barrel, I'm not smart to explain why that is the case, but I suspect it's true.

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I don't really understand why it would be too hard to wear out a barrel. Based on the alloy calculator I downloaded from here lino has a hardness of 19. Doesn't copper have a hardness of 130ish?
I just assumed it would be far too brittle for many applications. I guess if that is what you have and you are just paper punching it would be fine. However, from.what I have read here and other sources anything over 6% antimony makes boolits prone to shattering. Perhaps that is what would where out a barrel, boolits beginning to fragment before they left the bore?
I can certainly see why lyman #2 is good for many molds. I have not made any up nor used any, but I have made and used some 20:1 and the extra tin really helps fill out a big stubborn mold.

If your lino is like my lino it may be a well used alloy from many years ago, mine came as 25 lb cast pigs. As lino was re used it became tin poor since the pot of molten alloy was cleaned by scraping off the dross which is really some of the tin in an oxidized form. We casters usually reduce the alloy with a lipid and flux with carbon or borax etc. to keep that tin in solution. sooo, what I'm saying is don't count on 4% tin in your lino...I've learned to add 1% tin to the weight of lino that I'm using in the admixture to compensate. When I started doing that everything fell into line, density and BHN hit right on my target and the alloy became very user friendly with great mold fill out. Now I live in a happy place surrounded by good karma and inner peace! And that was before I consulted the Dali Lama...

To the above point, here is some Lino I had tested recently.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...f49c6d97cc.jpg

The reason people believe high antimony alloy will wear a barrel quickly is because of the nature of antimony. It is harder than lead and tin, 3 on the Mohs scale versus 1.5 for lead and tin. Also, antimony forms needles that extend out of the alloy. This is why antimony is a major constituent of babbit metals, the antimony supports a shaft away from the other components of the babbit and allow oil to stay in the space around the shaft.

Antimony in a boolit reduces the amount of contact of lead with the bore if the projectile is not oversized.

Hard alloys keep bullets from skidding & slumping. Accuracy is better.

Sizing to groove in 357 & 44 mag, works well with hard cast.

I learned from an early Lyman manual.

I just compared both, groove sized & throat sized. Groove diameter is more accurate.

Ask an old Bullseye Pistol shooter like me, what works. We need 3" groups or better @ 50 yards.

Test soft vs hard Grove diameter vs throat. https://www.thehighroad.org/index.ph...ards.3117/full https://www.thehighroad.org/index.ph...lloy.3118/full

many of the old reloading manuals suggest Lino and Lyman #2 and I have come to believe they are not needed in most cases. I found Lino to be as bad with leading as any other alloy in my hot 357 loads. I have learned more from this forum than I have from any manual. I have used range scrap from our pistol range with a little tin added, for both rifle and magnum pistol loads, my brother uses my cast in his SW 460 a over 1,900fps with no leading and I drive the Lee 158gr PB at 2,400 fps in my 357 Max with great accuracy and no leading at all, my secret is I coat with Hi-Tek Coating, I doubt I could be certain of this kind of performance from conventional lube. It works for me and those I cast for. Regards Stephen

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Originally Posted by 243winxb

Test soft vs hard Grove diameter vs throat. https://www.thehighroad.org/index.ph...ards.3117/full https://www.thehighroad.org/index.ph...lloy.3118/full

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Thank you for posting some groups that show your real world application. This poses more questions in my head though. What do you consider hard cast vs soft cast? Obviously your hard cast with lino mixed in give you better grouping, but would you mind going into detail some?
What is your composition or assumed (or measured if you have the equip.) Brinell hardness rate? Are you running more antimony than tin, which would increase your hardness. Or is your soft lead already tin rich and you are just balancing the antimony a bit.

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Originally Posted by Evoken

I don't really understand why it would be too hard to wear out a barrel. Based on the alloy calculator I downloaded from here lino has a hardness of 19. Doesn't copper have a hardness of 130ish?
I just assumed it would be far too brittle for many applications. I guess if that is what you have and you are just paper punching it would be fine. However, from.what I have read here and other sources anything over 6% antimony makes boolits prone to shattering. Perhaps that is what would where out a barrel, boolits beginning to fragment before they left the bore?
I can certainly see why lyman #2 is good for many molds. I have not made any up nor used any, but I have made and used some 20:1 and the extra tin really helps fill out a big stubborn mold.

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You are close, not fragmenting in the traditional sense, but Shedding (flaking off) Antimony Dendrites

I did say I wasn't smart enough to explain it.
luckily, I am smart enough to know how to search for someone who has explained it.

See post #540
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...=1#post3099260

^^while that post is a lot to digest I think it makes sense to me. Basically what the gentleman is saying is the alloy flakes act almost like a rubbing compound, which is what begins to wear the rifling down. I would imagine that may take some time, but perhaps not if you are hot rodding.

I think both alloys are too hard for the vast majority of handgun applications. I shoot a lot of range scrap in service calibers & it works just fine with midrange magnums.

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Originally Posted by Evoken

Thank you for posting some groups that show your real world application. This poses more questions in my head though. What do you consider hard cast vs soft cast? Obviously your hard cast with lino mixed in give you better grouping, but would you mind going into detail some?
What is your composition or assumed (or measured if you have the equip.) Brinell hardness rate? Are you running more antimony than tin, which would increase your hardness. Or is your soft lead already tin rich and you are just balancing the antimony a bit.

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Plain wheel weight & Pure 50/50 vs plain wheel weights plus 2" of Rotometal linotype. Lee 10 pound pot. No BHN test equipment. My thumbnail knows the difference. Maybe the difference was the bullet lube? :-D

I tested 45 acp with pure vs wheel weight + 2 inch Linotype. Pure had deformed noses, feeding problems, with poor accuracy. Pure was useless in my lyman mold, had to use a Saeco to get .452" diameter.

Photo of Oven Heat treated, water colded 44 mag test. https://www.thehighroad.org/index.ph...gnum.1354/full

AS ALWAYS, DO YOUR OWN TESTING.

Tested pure linotype in the 45 acp with 3.8 gr Bullseye powder. Lyman 200 gr bevel base , WLP in Starline. Bullet diameter .452"

Its been said, super hard alloys will lead when shooting target loads. The reason given is that there is no obturation of the bullet.

If bullets are .452" and groove is .4515" where is bullet going to expand too?

Can a copper jacketed bullet be to hard?

^^ 243winxb,
Thank you for the further clarification. That is some good shooting at 50 yds, heck I am half your age and I dont get groups like that consistently.
Thanks,
Ken

Pure lead & obturation. A pure lead Lee Key Drive Slug will expand in diameter & slump on firing in my 12 ga slug gun. The slug is tapered to be smaller at the base.
It can be messured.

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Originally Posted by Evoken

^^while that post is a lot to digest I think it makes sense to me. Basically what the gentleman is saying is the alloy flakes act almost like a rubbing compound, which is what begins to wear the rifling down. I would imagine that may take some time, but perhaps not if you are hot rodding.

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well, the main reason to use a hard alloy, like straight Lino, is for Hot rodding :)
Hence the title of the long thread I linked to.

Myself, I'd rather Heat Treat 94-3-3 to a BHN of 24 for Hot rodding, than use Lino.

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Originally Posted by JonB_in_Glencoe

well, the main reason to use a hard alloy, like straight Lino, is for Hot rodding :)
Hence the title of the long thread I linked to.

Myself, I'd rather Heat Treat 94-3-3 to a BHN of 24 for Hot rodding, than use Lino.

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That is what I am talking about. If you can use things like heat treating and water cooling to greatly increase hardness why waste the precious metals? I would imagine you could get some serious hardness out of lyman 2 with heat treatment/water cooling, but I dont quite understand all of that yet. I am learning from this forum though, that is certain.
I don't have any hardness testers or anything like that, but I cast some boolits some water dropped some not. After they cure for awhile I will conduct some hoopy hardness testing. I have some spring punches that will not tell me exact hardness, but should tell me that one is harder than the other and I should be able to determine the to an extent how much harder. Of course the proof will be both the accuracy and punch of said boolits.

Generally, the higher percentage of antimony, the faster the alloy will precipitation harden.
Generally, the higher the quench temperature of the casting, the harder it will become when mature. Two examples. When you oven heat treat at about 450-460 degrees, and quench immediately in cool water, you will reach max hardness. When you oven heat treat at about 410 degrees or so, it will not reach the same hardness. This is covered on the LASC site. Simplified, you do not really need max hardness so a weaker blend of alloy and a lower quench temp will give a moderately hard casting that will take care of the majority of a shooting need. Please review the information on the LASC site in case I made a mistake on the temps for quench hardening.

I will have to look at the lasc site for this information.
This poses another question. What to you gentlemen do when you say water quench? It is my understanding that you drop directly from the mold to a bucket of cold water. What is the purpose of oven heating a batch to a certain temperature then water or air cooling? Does the second heat sink further help in the tempering/hardening? Or is the oven heat just so that they are all a uniform temperature when you quench them?

Quenching from the mold might have a lot of temperature variation due to time between pouring and dropping from the mold. You have no real control over the temperature. Oven heat treating gives you a batch of nearly identically heated and quenched bullets. Makes life simpler. It is all in that article at LASC. Wha? second heat sink ?

That makes sense, that way everything is uniform. Heat sink may have been a poor choice of words. What I meant was I assume when you are oven treating you air cool your boolits in your catch as you are casting them. Then, once you are done casting you oven treat them to water cool.

I used the Lyman heat treat info from their online FAQ. First problem, bullets need sizing first. I lube sized with a Lyman 450. Then I had to remove lube before placing in oven. Ok for small test. Not for production.

Lyman-

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Lyman - Heat Treatment of Cast Bullets to Harden Them
Q: Is there anything I can do to make the bullets harder?
A: Cast bullets can be heat treated to increase their hardness providing your alloy has some antimony present. To heat treat your bullets: Cast your bullets in the normal manner, saving several scrap bullets. Size your bullets but do not lubricate them. Place several scrap bullets on a pan in your oven at 450 degrees and increase the temperature until the bullets start to melt or slump. Be sure to use an accurate oven thermometer and a pan that will not be used again for food. Once the bullets start to melt or slump, back off the temperature about 5 to 10 degrees and slide in your first batch of good bullets. Leave these in the oven for a half hour. Remove the bullets from the oven and plunge them into cool water. Allow them to cool thoroughly. When you are ready to lubricate, install a sizing die .001" larger than the one used to initially size them. This will prevent the sides of the bullets from work-softening from contact with the sizing die. Next apply gas checks if required and lubricate. These are now ready for loading.

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https://www.freepatentsonline.com/5464487.html see bottom of page

Comparing pure with linotype/WW is not any kind of a fair comparison. I run pure/ww 50/50 in my nines and my 45 acp's and it works great, no leading, good accuracy. Pure is way too soft. I save that for my muzzle loaders. My blackpowder cartridge guns get a 66/33 pure/WW mix. And I almost never add tin, as there is some already in there, I just run hot enough for proper fill-out.

I have read both items you gentlemen have posted and both are very informative.
It seems that if I decide I need to heat treat, then my Lee APP will get more of a workout than just the boolits I tumble lube.
Great stuff guys, thank you very much!
Ken

I have been using what is in the Lyman loading book with no 2 in my 223 and have been getting pretty decent results. Only at 50 yards though. Have not chronograph any as of yet.. try their data. It works..

Is there a link to the LASC website. I did a search but did not find it. Thanks.

It is a sticky above. A definitive answer to lead and alloys. You will find a link in there.

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Originally Posted by JonB_in_Glencoe

I think Lino was quite prevalent back in those days, so it was used on a regular basis by many casters.

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Yup. That's a true statement.
Printing shops were everywhere.
Now it's a different world..........

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Evoken

Looking through the lyman cast boolit book (#5) it calls for many of the boolits to be cast out of these 2 alloys. Now I am aware that this is just there suggestion, but are these alloys really that good?
What I mean is what applications would they have? Isn't lino too hard? Everything I have read on this site says you want something close to 2% tin and antimony for hunting rounds so that you get expansion and they are not brittle.
I have been mixing up some alloys for my 44 mags with the 2% range with slightly higher tin content. This far I have not experienced any leading even with boolits sized to .429.
I would assume you would want the harder lyman #2 for some of the rifle rounds that get cranked up, but isn't that the purpose of a gas check in high speed rifle rounds?
Just trying to figure out why lyman would advocate using such hard alloys. Not to mention the fact that tin and antimony are the more expensive components to these alloys.

Just curious I suppose.
Thanks,
Ken

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Lyman No2 is by far the best alloy I’ve used for high pressure loads. It is hard to enough that I have never had problems with swaging a cast bullet during seating. It is soft enough to get good expansion if you push it fast. It is tough enough to give exceptional weight retention along with expansion on game. It is my go to alloy for top accuracy if I’m loading 1,000 fps or faster. It is very easy to cast very good bullets with. It gives perfect fill out at lower temperature which all but eliminates tinning on your molds.
The only real complaints I see is the growing cost of tin if you don’t already have a tin stash stock piled.
Willie

I have no real use for lino or lyman#2 although I have some on hand. All bullets that I cast are with clip on ww, and are water dropped. I tried adding 50% near pure lead and a little tin to bring it up 0.5 to 1% then water dropped, and accuracy was as good as any other alloy mix, at least at pistol ranges out to 30 to 45 feet. I never seem to have a problem with any alloy hardness.
For rifle accuracy to the Nth degree at 100 and + yards the alloy becomes more important. Bullet fit and powder load is by far the most important for accuracy.

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Originally Posted by 243winxb

Tested pure linotype in the 45 acp with 3.8 gr Bullseye powder. Lyman 200 gr bevel base , WLP in Starline. Bullet diameter .452"

Its been said, super hard alloys will lead when shooting target loads. The reason given is that there is no obturation of the bullet.

If bullets are .452" and groove is .4515" where is bullet going to expand too?

Can a copper jacketed bullet be to hard?

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Back in the day I had access to very cheap lino & cast my CAS bullets with it. Shot great but a waste of good lino, & I had quite a bit of leading at low pressure 45colt levels. Wish I would have bought a pallet back then though. I have 100# of pure that I need to alloy.

Fred, I have not been here for years but still remembered your picture from way back when.