Training accident at Camp Pendleton

They had an AAV sink during training, seems like most of the guys in it haven't ben found and now the presumption is they drowned inside.

During my 24 years in the Army with all the night time field training and tracked vehicle movements and other stuff, it was always amazing to me that we didn't get guys maimed or killed every time we went out, but generally, fatal accidents were very rare. I'm not trying to place any blame or speculate on what happened only to say that it is very sad and we should keep the families of those 9 or twn young men in our thoughts and prayers now. Warfighting is a dangerous thing, even in training.

https://taskandpurpose.com/news/miss...k9LjjftmfVnvz0

Hopefully, they find our fellow brothers quickly, prayers to all the families .

Spent many hours, on a track! As an 03, the view wasn't great, but it beat the heck out of walking, or climbing down cargo nets to a Mike boat!

Armor is dangerous and amphibious armor doubly so. My armor career included the M551 Sheridan, one of which I observed go down in the blink of an eye during a practice swim. Fortunately, that time the driver got out and no one was hurt but swimming armor is probably more dangerous than combat. My prayers for our lost Marines.

I’m still a part of that world and the loss of life is tragic. The Commandant has ceased all water operations for the time being. Unfortunately as of yet the vehicle has not been recovered for the all important question of why. Perhaps the survivors may give some clues.

This is just one of those type of military vehicle operations that can get you, like a parachute not opening or an aircraft load shifting during take off. It’s done routinely everyday and for the most part uneventful.

We just learned to live with the risk and move on....

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Originally Posted by richhodg66

Warfighting is a dangerous thing, even in training.

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Folks that have never been in have no idea. They also have no idea how devastating it can be to moral to loose people, especially in training mishaps. I've been through it a number of times.

My sincerest condolences to the families of those lost.

In my youth; we called Amtracks (Amphibious Vehicle, Tracked (LVT) originally; now - Assault Amphibious Vehicle (AAV)) floating coffins. Great vehicle for warfare; but when it goes wrong - it goes wrong FAST. With a crew of 3 and 21 Marines in the compartment; getting out in an emergency in water is via the Drivers hatch or the "Commanders Hatch". Hated getting in an out of these hatches as I am 6'4" and with a flack vest and H Harness I always got my gear hung up getting out of the AAV. Same Reason I Hated the HMMWV when it was fielded to replace the Jeep; getting out quickly was very difficult in Combat Gear. Last ditch option in the AAV in water is to open the rear assault door because water will immediately flood in and sink the vehicle - getting Marines in Combat Gear out is difficult; which is why probably only 8 survived.

When I was a young medic working in the emergency room at Madigan Army Hospital, I saw a lot of GIs coming through who had sprains and breaks related to using the weird Army cross country skis for training. The location chosen for this was next to a commercial downhill ski run, and that was where they trained. The equipment was never designed for this kind of use, although it can be done very carefully. When the ER doc, a captain, talked to the hospital commander, a general, about the problem, he was told that the soldiers need to practice with the equipment they will use in combat; no recommendation for change.

Years later when I trained with the Army National Guard, the official policy had changed, and we were all briefed on how to stay safe while training in hot, dangerous environments. Even in peacetime, losing a soldier to accidental injury is a big loss to the unit and the nation. In combat, many more soldiers are killed by accidents than die in fighting. Even General Patton was not immune. He died as a result of a traffic accident after the war in Europe had ended.

Wayne

" Even General Patton was not immune. He died as a result of a traffic accident after the war in Europe had ended."

They "said" it was an accident. Patton was so plain spoken that he had many enemies. Some of whom did not have what it takes to oppose him to his face.

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Originally Posted by 45workhorse

Hopefully, they find our fellow brothers quickly, prayers to all the families .

Spent many hours, on a track! As an 03, the view wasn't great, but it beat the heck out of walking, or climbing down cargo nets to a Mike boat!

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Watched my Lt. go out on a trial run before the beach landing in 84. When it hit the water [emoji98] it sank like a rock. They swam back. I used to sleep [emoji42] on them.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I was active duty from 1973 to 1997. "My" war was Desert Storm, August 1990-March 1991, though I enlisted before the war in Vietnam was over. We had, IIRC, 249 fatalities in that time frame. That was fewer than the usual annual fatalities from training accidents. Wikipedia says it was 149. They do list it as combat deaths, and not all of those killed in the Gulf War were actual combat casualties. First guy killed, IIRC, was a truck driver who was sleeping under his truck when they were allowed a break after several days of non-stop work. His buddy woke up, jumped in the truck started it and drove away, killing him. And there was a C-5A crash at Ramstein on their way to the war where a bunch of folks were killed. Those deaths were not, technically, combat casualties.

I spent five years at Nellis AFB, where they do the Red Flag exercises. We averaged 20 aircraft accidents a year while I was there. IIRC, about 70 fatalities, and about 10 of them were people I knew, or were friends of mine. If I've got PTSD from my service, it's from that five years. The reason they did Red Flag was because they figured out that most of the pilots who did not survive the war got killed in their first ten missions. They set up Red Flag to give them those first ten missions in as safe an environment as was possible. I heard it expressed as "the more you train the less you bleed." Unfortunately, when you're stressing people and high-performance aircraft, safe as possible is not the same thing as safe.

It's the price of doing business, as they say. Pretty darned high price, IMO. What kept me going during the investigations, and the photographing autopsies on people I knew was the hope that we'd learn something that would prevent the next accident, or at least make it survivable.

113 and bradley

can they float?
sure

are they going to this time?

fingers crossed

:(

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Originally Posted by MUSTANG

Last ditch option in the AAV in water is to open the rear assault door because water will immediately flood in and sink the vehicle - getting Marines in Combat Gear out is difficult; which is why probably only 8 survived.

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Rear door wont open until the vehicle is completely flooded (the door opens outward the water pressure holds it closed) , just like a car in a river or pond there's training video's around of submerged car escapes. Mythbusters even did an episode on it. In the water if sinking the only basic escape routes are thru the top hatches, if the water is coming in too fast the rear the aft cargo hatches cannot be opened and the only escape route left is thru the TC hatch located behind the driver. The Turret is higher but negotiating through it is near imposable in a hurry.

The modern loadout for the Marines includes a pony bottle of breathing air (mini scuba tank). The Marines are trained on its use and escaping from a water crashed helo/sinking AAV for deployments. Escape routes are a part of the pre-embark briefings.. sorta like a stewardess briefing on a plane.

I always cringe when I hear of someone dying in a training accident and it hurts to my soul. Probably because when I was little, my Father was killed in one.

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Originally Posted by WRideout

When I was a young medic working in the emergency room at Madigan Army Hospital, I saw a lot of GIs coming through who had sprains and breaks related to using the weird Army cross country skis for training. The location chosen for this was next to a commercial downhill ski run, and that was where they trained. The equipment was never designed for this kind of use, although it can be done very carefully. When the ER doc, a captain, talked to the hospital commander, a general, about the problem, he was told that the soldiers need to practice with the equipment they will use in combat; no recommendation for change.

Years later when I trained with the Army National Guard, the official policy had changed, and we were all briefed on how to stay safe while training in hot, dangerous environments. Even in peacetime, losing a soldier to accidental injury is a big loss to the unit and the nation. In combat, many more soldiers are killed by accidents than die in fighting. Even General Patton was not immune. He died as a result of a traffic accident after the war in Europe had ended.

Wayne

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Madigan Army Hosp. I was stationed at Ft. Lewis from 83 to 86. Had my wisdom teeth pulled there. Best dentists I've ever been to. My son is currently stationed there as a Sergeant in the MP's. Two of my grand kids were born there also.
Puttin the thread back on track, and less about me. I was quite saddened to read of the accident. It will always hurt to read of the loss of our men to any circumstance, be it in war or peace.

Sucks. I had training accidents drilled home to me in Airborne School when 2 guys jumping right after me burned in and bounced like super balls. Watched it happen and one was the guy in the bunk over me in the barracks. It happens and is never good but it does impress on you that the military is for keeps.

God Speed, soldiers and Marines.

You dont hear it enough. Thanks for your service.

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Originally Posted by jonp

Sucks. I had training accidents drilled home to me in Airborne School when 2 guys jumping right after me burned in and bounced like super balls. Watched it happen and one was the guy in the bunk over me in the barracks. It happens and is never good but it does impress on you that the military is for keeps.

God Speed, soldiers and Marines.

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Amen!

why don't "training exercises" have GPS transponders in the vehicles when "TRAINING"?

mozeppa, the short answer is money. Ground equipment seldom if ever gets that kind of advanced capability as they are considered expendable.

In the aircraft world those capabilities are expected and often mandatory.

In twenty years in the Army saw a lot of people hurt to varying degrees in training and normal day to day activities. Given what we were doing and all the potential for injury not surprising. My sympathy to their families and friends, whether in war or peace the loss is always devastating to those left behind.

They've released the names, the oldest one was 23, just kids really.

Had to be a truly horrible last few minutes on earth for them, this is so sad.

For those following the story

https://www.military.com/daily-news/...r-sinking.html

Vehicle located in 325 feet of water. All servicemen recovered. RIP

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Originally Posted by richhodg66

They've released the names, the oldest one was 23, just kids really.

Had to be a truly horrible last few minutes on earth for them, this is so sad.

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Fighting is a young mans game. Most guys retire before age 40 with 20 in and that isn't old really. My condolences to their families. What they do is dangerous just given the equipment and tasks that have to be performed, always pushing to do a little more or a little better. A lot of us have been there but were lucky.

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Originally Posted by Finster101

Fighting is a young mans game. Most guys retire before age 40 with 20 in and that isn't old really. My condolences to their families. What they do is dangerous just given the equipment and tasks that have to be performed, always pushing to do a little more or a little better. A lot of us have been there but were lucky.

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I was in Iraq in 2008-2009. Had some Soldiers really worked hard at a pretty arduous task and did a good job, justified an impact AAM I was putting them in for. Looking over their personal data and realized one was born after I had already been in the Army a couple of years really hit home. Still did three more and it was the right thing for my situation, but yeah, it's not for older guys.

Still, hate to see someone's life end before they really even got out of the starting gate.

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Originally Posted by richhodg66

Looking over their personal data and realized one was born after I had already been in the Army a couple of years really .

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When a young trooper was born after you first came in, we called that as you being 'dated'.

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Originally Posted by Winger Ed.

When a young trooper was born after you first came in, we called that as you being 'dated'.

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Every one of those kids was born after I retired. And I've outlived kids who worked with me when we were both on active duty, too. I'm feeling old and I'm only 65. Heck, a couple of my young cousins are now retired from the Army, both Iraq & Afghanistan vets, and one didn't survive his third tour in Iraq.

Godspeed to each and every one of them and condolences to their families in this time of grief. :(

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Originally Posted by richhodg66

I was in Iraq in 2008-2009. Had some Soldiers really worked hard at a pretty arduous task and did a good job, justified an impact AAM I was putting them in for. Looking over their personal data and realized one was born after I had already been in the Army a couple of years really hit home. Still did three more and it was the right thing for my situation, but yeah, it's not for older guys.

Still, hate to see someone's life end before they really even got out of the starting gate.

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I hope you understand that my post was not to belittle their sacrifice but acknowledge that it is mostly young men who are engaged in these endeavors. I thank you for your service. I continue to be in awe of what these young men and women can accomplish under extreme circumstances.

James

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Originally Posted by Finster101

I hope you understand that my post was not to belittle their sacrifice but acknowledge that it is mostly young men who are engaged in these endeavors. I thank you for your service. I continue to be in awe of what these young men and women can accomplish under extreme circumstances.

James

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No problem at all.

The older I get, the more I come to realize, I wish we could all have the wisdom, judgement, mental toughness and emotional stability age and life experience brings combined with the physical vigor youth has. I'm still pretty capable, more than most 54 year old guys, but no way could I endure some of the things I did routinely at that age. Yes, there's a reason it's a young man's game and likely always will be.

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Originally Posted by William Yanda

" Even General Patton was not immune. He died as a result of a traffic accident after the war in Europe had ended."

They "said" it was an accident. Patton was so plain spoken that he had many enemies. Some of whom did not have what it takes to oppose him to his face.

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funny they had the ability to fly penicilin to europe for a mere private or civilian, but not the greatest General that saved the war..

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Originally Posted by pocketace

funny they had the ability to fly penicilin to europe for a mere private or civilian, but not the greatest General that saved the war..

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Guy I used to know said someone he knew claimed that he and some of his friends/fellow soldiers intentionally ran over the "stupid general" because they didn't like him. I have no idea if this guy's claim is even reasonable, but I suppose it's possible.

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Originally Posted by richhodg66

No problem at all.

The older I get, the more I come to realize, I wish we could all have the wisdom, judgement, mental toughness and emotional stability age and life experience brings combined with the physical vigor youth has. I'm still pretty capable, more than most 54 year old guys, but no way could I endure some of the things I did routinely at that age. Yes, there's a reason it's a young man's game and likely always will be.

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At 57, still want to be first through door! But like you said a younger mans job. Sometimes I still get to be first, just glad I belong to a good team. I love my job, plan on staying till 60, if the good Lord wills it! Then it's retired for the second time and disappearing on the bike time.

Retired twice is great. But; you'll miss it after a few months of "RETIRED".