Winchester 1873 44-40 cast bullet load

Hi Guys,

Matt here from South Africa. I have been scratching for loss, but due to the max limit of 11 000 psi I don’t want to use just any load data and as far as I understand not all powders are suitable for cast bullets.

So I am looking for a safe load for a 44-40 Winchester model 1873. 24 inch barrel. I am using a 200gr Ohaus mold. Specs says 0.427 bullet diameter, will check when I cast my first bullets and see if sizing is required.

I have new Starline brass and planning on using CCI or Stellier and Bellot large pistol primers. (I have so large rifle primers as well)

I still need to by powder. We have a limited supply of Hodgdon, Alliant, Lovex and Vivhatouri powders available locally. Unfortunately no 2400, RE7 or unique.

Any other suggestions?

I also have 100 250gr cast bullets, but someone told me not to shoot them in the 1873 as the action is too week. Is this true? If not, any loads available for 250gr cast bullets?

Will really appreciate some help.

Regards
Matt


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Good Morning Matt and WELCOME !!
Treat your 1873 kindly and it will last another 100 years. Is this an original 1873 ?
But if you are going to shoot smokeless powder it is very important to measure the groove diameter at the chamber area Your slug is a piston and must contain the pressure at the bullet base. Hot gas is not good sliding up on the sides of the lead.
If the groove diameter is .430 I would want a slug at least .431..
We have several 44-40 rifles made before 1908 and they all need different diameter lead slugs to shoot well.
Mike in LLama Land

First make sure anything you load in the magazine tube is a flat point bullet. I like a 200 gr RNFP loaded in front of a fiber wad with max load of Hodgdon 777 compressed about 3mm, about 35 gr by volume, large pistol primer, and Star-Line brass.

I play cowboy here (SASS) and the .44WCF is my cartage if not shooting cap and ball.

My favorite load is IMR SR4756, 8.4-9.3 gr, WLP primer, Star-Line case, 200 gr RNFP sized to .429"/10.90mm. I have 2 Colt SAA's in .44WCF, 3 rifles, a 73, a lighting, and a 92 and all like a different powder load but all shot good with this powder for me.

The load I shot the most is 25 gr FFFg black powder plus filler for the pistols and 35 gr FFFg in the rifles. I use a soft lead bullet with a very big lube groove with a lube made to shoot with black powder. I compress the powder about .25"/6mm. Works very will on deer size game.

You can use:
HP-38 5.5-6.5 gr
Universal 6.5-7.0 gr
W 231 5.5-6.4 gr
Titegroup 5.0-6.2 gr
Unique 6.0-8.0 gr
XMP-5744 13.5-17.0 GR

The loads are out of the OREGON TRAIL BULLET COMPANY LASER-CAST RELOADING MANUAL first edition. https://oregontrailbullets.com/xcart...oad-manual.pdf

Enjoy that rifle and good hunting.:bigsmyl2:

Hi Mike,

As far as I know it’s original.

I’ve considered slugging it, but it freaks me out to do it too such an old fire-arm. Feels like I might break something Attachment 263105


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Yep looks like a real Winchester to me !! If you look under the lever (lower tang) there is a long # which is the serial #. If you will type the first 4 nunbers and just an XXXX for the rest we an let you know what year it was made.

4376xxB, was not sure if the B was of any importance


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Probably a third model as the 1st and 2nd had extra screws.
Slug the groove with a very soft lead slug and nothing will be hurt. Fishing weights or muzzle loader round balls are good. A brass rod or wood dowel for tapping the slug through the barrel.
Clean barrel and lightly oat the slug with oil

Attachment 263108
Here is a better photo of the action


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The book shows 1891

Well I have to get moving.... Nice rifle !!!

Thanks man


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Savvy Jack has done a lot of pressure testing of loads for the 44-40, you might do a search for his posts/threads or check on the Cast Bullet Assoc. forum as there is a current thread by him there on the 44-40. He also has a site of his on with a plethora of 44-40 load information.

I have done some vicarious pressure test of 44-40 loads and have found 6 gr of Bullseye under a 200 gr cast is right at the SAAMI MAP of 11,000 psi for the 44-40.

Or, if available, simply load a case full of gun powder, now known as black powder! That's how I load mine.

If the rifle is in good shape, a load of H or IMR 4227 at 17 - 18grs is an alright start. As long as your lead of choice is sized proper.

+1 on the 6 grains of Bullseye and 200-grain bullet. I use the same load in my 1905 Colt Frontier Six Shooter. I use 1 to 40 tin-lead and size bullets .430"

Attachment 263115

Again, slug your barrel to determine the required bullet diameter. I had a nearly identical 1873 Winchester also mfg in 1891 and shot mine using the RCBS 200 grain cast bullet (likely the same mould as your Ohaus version) at .430" with 9.0 grains of Unique. It would keep all 15 rounds (full magazine rifle so it held 14 in the mag tube and one up the spout) on the 200 yard steel gong at our local range. Shoot it and enjoy it ...

I can tell you that the 6.0 grs of Bullseye powder is real nice . Easy to shoot , easy on the gun and very accurate . I got that load from Outpost75 . I have an 1894 Marlin , low 3 digit serial # . I use the LEE 200 gr RNFP .427 mold . I get bullets over .429 out of my mold . Regards Paul

Hi Guys, thanks for the replies so far. Seems like the only powder mentioned available locally is IMR 4227.


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It's good powder but only in moderation, no 1892 Winchester loads. The 17 - 18 grs I mentioned should be ok in your rifle, start at 17. If accuracy with lead goes bad quick, you may want to try as big a slug as will fit chambered. And try keep the hardness down. Softer the better.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Matt44-40

Hi Guys, thanks for the replies so far. Seems like the only powder mentioned available locally is IMR 4227.


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Not sure how I missed this topic!

Since it is a year old, you probably already found your desired load.

IMR-4227 basically replaced #1204 which was (IMR) #1204. 4227 is borderline for the 44-40 lighter loads. It really needs pressure to burn they way it should. Lightly loaded, safe for the Winchester 73', it can leave unburnt powder and can be position sensitive. It's certainly not a bad powder or it wouldn't be advertised for the 44-40.

In order to be "safe" for the Winchester 73' (Group I rifles), Lyman lists only 17gr max with the 427098 bullet. My tests in a 20" barrel yielded 1,127fps @ a fairly mild 9,389 psi as an average over ten shots fired. SAAMI lists 11,000psi as MAP. Depending on your bore size, it could be more or less with larger or smaller diameter bullets used.

For Group II rifles, Lyman lists 20.5gr with a Speer #4425 JHP. These are factory sized .429 and should only be used in .429 barrels. Here is were it gets tricky. This max load gave me 1,297fps @ 12,200psi which I personally feel is safe for the new replica 73's. HOWEVER, I would not push the issue except for hunting, for your loads could give different results. Also, the main problem in these loads is knowing your bore size and using the appropriate sized bullets in accordance.

2400 powder (introduced in 1932) is basically the same but burns a tad faster thus less charges should be used in comparison with IMR-4227. Both are mid-range rifle powders specifically used in the 22 Hornet, 25-20 types as well as the 30-06. Both powders referred to as Magnum powders now days because of their popularity use in the 357/44 Magnum variants.

Contrary to popular belief, Magnum powders are nothing more than slower burning rifle powders while the faster burning pistol powders like Unique and Bullseye are more dangerous. Bullseye has been around since 1899 and Unique since 1900 and were widely used in the 44-40 cartridges. IMR-4227 was developed about a year after the introduction of the 357 Magnum and directly replaced #1204. #1204 was developed in 1925 and was widely used in the dash calibers like the 25-20, 32-20, 38-40 and 44-40. These powders were loaded a bit hotter back in the 1930's compared to what is published today. Care should certainly be taken as not to exceed safe pressures for the 73's design and even the revolver's weaker design.

Just to add;

Winchester used Dupont #2 from the 73's introduction back in 1895, up to the early 1920's. Winchester switched to Sharpshooter from the early 1920's and eventually stopped using it by the late 1950's to very early 1960's, both rifle powders. I personally have seen a mixture of use between Ball powder (samples from August 1949 by Western) and Sharpshooter (samples as late as 1944) but has been said that Sharpshooter has been used up to the early early 1960's.

With that, handloaders have had the option of using quite a few powders. The main powders of choice, aside from Sharpshooter, seem to be pistol powers...Bullseye, Unique, and rifle powders...1204, SR80, then IMR-4227.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...gid=2085097263

Here is a powder time-line I have been working on
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...gid=1535991811

Hi Savvy,

Thanks, still have not gotten around to reload for the 44-40. But hope to start soon.

It seems like we now have Unique available locally as well. Would that be better than 4227?

Regards
Matt


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Unique would be better for light loads than 4227, and much more economical as you would use a bit less than half as much powder.

With a 200-grain bullet 7 grains is a good starting load, about 1050 fps at 6700 psi, according to Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook, 4th Edition (2010) on p.208. Lyman lists 8.6 grains as max. for 1226 fps at 12,600 psi. To be gentle with your older Winchester rifle I would inclined not exceed 8 grains as a maximum, and would recommend you work in the range of 7.0-7.5 grains to find best accuracy. If possible check velocity with a chronograph to keep loads subsonic in your longer barrel, as this generally gives best results and is adequate for most field shooting.

Savvy Jack may have more recent pressure-tested .44-40 data with Unique powder, but I have found Lyman 4th Edition a good resource.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Matt44-40

Hi Savvy,

Thanks, still have not gotten around to reload for the 44-40. But hope to start soon.

It seems like we now have Unique available locally as well. Would that be better than 4227?

Regards
Matt


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Unique is fine for both old and new 73's as long as you stick with the Lyman loads, however, your velocities may be slower than desired. Unique is also probably preferred if only shooting out to 100 yards. You may see better or worse performance than others see greater than 100 yards. It gets a little more complicated than that, but we will keep simple for right now. Unique is a fast burning pistol powder and if you try to load for original velocities in rifles, you will exceed max pressures for revolvers and weak action rifles like the 73'. Uberti chambered their 73' in 44 Mag, so we have that going for us too.....

IMR-4227 has about the same burn rate as the original 73' smokeless rifle powder and is also considered a rifle powder although it is referred to as a "magnum" powder. However, this powder is position sensitive and is best when used in bulk, and is a bit much when loaded properly for revolvers and weak action rifles like the 73'. 2400 powder falls in the same lines as IMR-4227.

Reloder 7 is best for replicating original 1,325fps loads and is very accurate out to 300 yards. Although maybe not as accurate as black powder, Reloader 7 retains low chamber pressures compared to the "same velocities" as with Unique and is the reason we can get faster velocities for the 73's. Reloder 7 is probably the slowest burning of the "slower burning" fast burning smokeless powders out there. I have not "cleaned" my bore in nearly 1,000 rounds and I still get tight groups (tight for the 44-40 anyway), however, Reloder 7 leaves unburnt powder grains down the rifle barrel.

Which is best? It depends on what you want to accomplish.

Plinking - Unique (its cheaper per shot)
Hunting - Unique if 75 yards or less (its cheaper per shot)
Hunting - Reloder 7 out to at least 250 yards if your aim is good. My loads should retain nearly 1,000fps @ 300 yards while modern Winchester Super-X loads are barely 1,025fps at the muzzle in a carbine!!!! Back in the day, Winchester hunting loads were advertised at 990fps at 300 yards., the same as the muzzle velocity from a revolver....back in the day!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Outpost75

Unique would be better for light loads than 4227, and much more economical as you would use a bit less than half as much powder.

With a 200-grain bullet 7 grains is a good starting load, about 1050 fps at 6700 psi, according to Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook, 4th Edition (2010) on p.208. Lyman lists 8.6 grains as max. for 1226 fps at 12,600 psi. To be gentle with your older Winchester rifle I would inclined not exceed 8 grains as a maximum, and would recommend you work in the range of 7.0-7.5 grains to find best accuracy. If possible check velocity with a chronograph to keep loads subsonic in your longer barrel, as this generally gives best results and is adequate for most field shooting.

Savvy Jack may have more recent pressure-tested .44-40 data with Unique powder, but I have found Lyman 4th Edition a good resource.

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yes, stick with Lyman's suggested loads!!

My chamber pressure tests can be found here:

Reloder 7 - https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...#gid=819756635
Unique - https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...#gid=698638222
IMR-4227 - https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...gid=1932105783
Black Powder - https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...#gid=598633334

Other powders and loads are also available by using the tabs at the bottom of the spreadsheet.

The below published load data shows Reloder 7 for a 240gr lead bullet. Make sure you use a typical RNFP design, for I have found erratic pressures for different design 240gr bullets.

Attachment 286676

Thanks guys. I am not comfortable to hunt at more than 50 yards with open sights and the rifle will mostly be used for plinking. So I am happy to keep is sub-sonic.

I would have loved to give Reloader 7 a try, but for some reason they did not bring any in to South africa.

Savvy, can I try unique with 250grain cast bullets? Or is it risky? I have about 200 of them and have not bought everything I need to start casting.


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Savvy Jack,

Those are some interesting Loads.
Thanks for sharing all Your Hard work.

In the past I've loaded 250gr N.O.E. #TL432-247-RF with 6.0grs of Unique in a Uberti 1873. That works safely in My 1937 Colt and Uberti 1873. Shoots high in Win 1892 and Uberti SAA.
Good Luck, be Safe.

These loads I listed above are safe in My listed firearms. Use caution, they may not be safe in yours.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Matt44-40

Thanks guys. I am not comfortable to hunt at more than 50 yards with open sights and the rifle will mostly be used for plinking. So I am happy to keep is sub-sonic.

I would have loved to give Reloader 7 a try, but for some reason they did not bring any in to South africa.

Savvy, can I try unique with 250grain cast bullets? Or is it risky? I have about 200 of them and have not bought everything I need to start casting.


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I can not suggest using Unique with anything but 200gr to 205gr bullets, as published.

I used to load BP Sub CleanShot w/ 200gr cast lean FP bullet. in my orig 1873 rifles.
Accuracy was decent out to 100yrds. One is an orig 44-40. The other a rebore from 38-40.
Then I wandered into smokeless so as to avoid the clean up, though it was admittedly very little work.

I settled on a load right out of the Alliant Reloading Guide. One of their 'Cowboy Loads'

Same 200 gr FN cast bullet. I buy them in .427dia.
MAX load is 5.9 gr of Red Dot
..STARTING LOAD is a 10% reduction of that according to the Alliant webpage.
http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloade...13&bulletid=14

I Started and stayed right at 5.0 grains of RedDot for the load.
Accuracy improved greatly over the BP Sub loads and after several years of using that load absolutely no damage to the rifles.

I use it in a Win 92 SRC and a Colt Bisley as well.
Just range toys.

Heavier weight cast 44 bullets I have, but I keep them for loading in 44special in a SAA.
I've just always stuck with the 200gr FN cast bullet in the 44-40.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ajohns

If the rifle is in good shape, a load of H or IMR 4227 at 17 - 18grs is an alright start. As long as your lead of choice is sized proper.

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Good question. I load for a break action Cape Gun the barrel is heavy the chamber wall close to 1/2" thick. Most loads designed with a pistol cartridge in mind seem rather light. I've been shooting a 245 grain lead bullet over 12 grains of AA#7, it shoots accurate, but seems a bit on the light side.