What did I do Wrong?

Hi everyone
I've been lurking here for a while soaking up info on casting and powder coating. Full disclosure, I'm a complete noob to casting. So last week I finally dusted off the equipment I got second hand a few years ago and casted some 158gn RNFP from a 6cavity Lee mold. The alloy came from clip on wheel weights that I melted down, cleaned and fluxed, and poured into muffin ingots per directions I found here. After a bit of trial and error, I started getting some halfway respectable projectiles. So today, I got some Eastwood Ford Light Blue hotcoat, gave them a spin in the tumbler for about 15min, popped them in the oven at 400f for 20min, took them out and dropped them in water....and it does not look good. Poor coverage, coating kinda peels off, lots of bare spots. So, two questions. Where did I go wrong, and what do I do now? Can these be salvaged, or do the go into the pot next time I melt wheel weights?

was the tumbler clean? It looks like you contaminated the lead before powdercoating.
did you quench after casting before powdercoating? this is a good way to contaminate the boolits
some powders don't work well lying down, I've never tried Eastwood Ford Light Blue
did the boolits stick to each other and the wire basket?
did you check the oven with a thermometer to see if it was actually reaching 400°

1. Did you clean the cast bullets of lube/oils before applying Powder Coati?

2. I see a line down several bullets, probably where the bullet played on it's side during cooking. I prefer to sit each of mine bottom down so the powder is not affected on the sides.

3. You baked for "20 Minutes"; did you preheat the oven so that your stove was hot and had a full 20 minutes of cooking time?

The tumbler was brand new, this was the first use. Bullets were air cooled and then put directly into a clean container. They didn't stick together much, 2 stuck to the basket, maybe half dozen or so were stuck together in pairs. The oven temp maybe the wildcard. Didn't have an oven thermometer to verify the oven temp.
I did preheat, and run for 20 min.

More questions:

1) What kind of tumbler...vibrator or rotary?

2) Did you use any plastic beads/Airsoft BBs as static generators during tumbling?

3) How many boolits are you trying to coat at in a single batch? (The pic of the basket in the oven looks like you've got 3 or 4 layers of boolits in there. A pile that dense is going to take a lot more time to come up to working temp than a single layer.)

I've used nothing but Smoke's powder for the last three or four years so I can't really comment on the characteristics of Eastman but the only time I've ever had anything looking like that come out of my oven was due to moisture-contaminated powder but, if this is your first batch out of a fresh container, that shouldn't be as issue here.

My guess is that you may be encountering two or (possibly?) three different things: (1) If you're not using something (plastic beads/Airsoft BBs) to generate static electricity when you're tumbling you may not be getting consistent coating on your boolits. (2) Even properly preheated, you're oven temp is going to drop drastically when you stuff in a big, thick pile of cold boolits so you should wait a few minutes for it to come back up before you start the recommended '20 minute bake time.' (I work only with a single layer in an oven similar to yours and, pre-heated to 420 deg., my 'bake time' runs 22 to 25 minutes, depending upon the size/quantity of boolits loaded into my tray.) (3) I've never tried water-quenching coated boolits so I'm not certain what the effect might on the hardness of your coating but I do know that my boolits go through the sizer die a lot slicker and come out a lot shinier if I let them air cool to room temp before sizing.

Bill

I could not get a good coating with a vibratory tumbler. 30 seconds in a tuperware container gave me much better results.

Thank you all for the replies. From what it sounds like, I'm thinking I was not baking hot or long enough. I'll try the cool whip container and BB's next time, no BBs I the tumbler this try. But what to do with these, try to coat them again, or can I chuck them in with the next batch of wheel weights?

not all powder coat powder will tumble coat, start with a proven powder and you will remove a lot of the problems from the git go.

I use the Eastwood light blue and tumble coat. They do well. I do smaller batches for my rifle.

The color of your coating seems off as well. Mine come out a darker blue than that. Maybe camera flash?

Eastwood's instructions are fairly clear. Oven at 450. Bake until the powder is glossy over the entire bullet. Then turn down to 400 for 20min.

Remelt those. You could load and shoot them, but, you might also end up with a mess in your barrel.

For your first try I would stand them on their bases and spread them out a little. Probably only 40 or 50 to a batch, but, you need to determine where the problem is. Spreading them out means they will get up to temp faster. Once you get some good batches, then try baskets of bullets.

Your tumbler may have had some leftover mold release on it from being made. Basically it is a wax.

Well, take 2, and take 3....
Turns out a low temp was not the problem, but a short cook time certainly was. I hand tumbled the next batch but they melted in the test cook. So brought the heat back down....turns out my oven runs a bit hot. Did another small batch, stood some up, let some sit side ways on the basket. I'm finding standing is definitely better. I have a larger batch of biscuits in the oven now...look to be doing pretty good. Cooking for 35 minutes to make sure I'm fully cured, and then letting them air cool.

Duplicate

The bare spots could easily be where the boolits were touching each other or the basket.

Standing them up I would cook on the sheet pan that came with the oven and "borrow" some parchment paper from the kitchen to set them on. loading a bunch of boolits on a flimsy container can lead to the pan flexing

https://i.imgur.com/XnAmOaf.jpg

tray flexed when I picked it up dumping the boolits :(

https://i.imgur.com/G8NXstJ.jpg

Look's like you got it with the 5 boolits that didn't melt, even the coating on the melted ones looks good.

I can't tell if it's still a little thick {with thick/excessive PC on the boolits they are more likely to stick/pull PC of each other/leave bare spots}

Borrow a thermometer from the kitchen of pay $3 - $5 for one in a store. Knowing the heat setting is kind of important unless you like "lead pudding" :)

https://i.imgur.com/d1xS5UO.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/9QiOuSF.png

Read the stickies about powder coating.Your questions will be answered.

get a cheap oven thermometer to check them--wallyworld has them for less than $5

something about using brand new powder I've found: it takes a couple bullet tumblings through new powder to have the bare spots go away. Not talking about same batch of bullets

it's like the actual powder needs to 'break in' (get conditioned??) before the covering is good.

I've had this happen on several colors and it's no big deal. Just seems to need this break in

▲ this is just me as far as I know so take it FWIW

Conditor22,

I've heard that yellow is a difficult color to PC. What brand and specific color are you using?

I have used HF red, several of Smokes colors & PBT# purple, all shake & bake fine @ 400 for 15m in preheated oven. I stand them up or you do get bare spots where they stick together. I water drop out of the oven.

I have been experimenting with PC for the last 2 weeks. Some successes, some failures. After 3 days I bought an oven thermometer and copper cooking sheets.Things got better. Lyman 9mm 356402, .38 Super 358480 and .45 ACP 452374 hollow pointed by Eric at Hollowpoint Bullet Mold Service worked best with Eastwood Ford light blue PC. I found some .45 Long Colt 452454 bullets cast huge around .461 and took tremendous force to size thru my Lyman 450 sizer. The PC added 3-4 thousandths more and the .452 sizer die scraped off lead in spots. [The first 3 bullet types did not scrape off] I gave up trying a 2nd coating as that scraped off too. Rather than remelt & recast them I just lubed them with Alox. I haven't shot any yet so no results to comment on. I'm going to get a rug remnant to stand on to generate some static electricity when I shake the boolits in a #5 bowl. My main purpose to powdercoat bullets was to do away with the sticky Alox lube that I had to wipe off excess from bullet bases and noses with Brakleen. Also I wanted to have cleaner shooting loads with less cleanup afterwards. I'm 60% there now.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mica_Hiebert

I could not get a good coating with a vibratory tumbler. 30 seconds in a tuperware container gave me much better results.

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I agree 100%. Tumblers are for cleaning brass and polishing rocks. NOT for PC coating!

Easy to do with a #5 coolwhip container, some GOOD PROVEN shake-n-bake powder, and ASBB's (some do it without out). 15-20 seconds of good shaking ( upper body work-out!) and you got perfect coated boolits ready to bake. And I bake at 400F for only 10 min after the powder turns shiny.

Try it and save your tumbler for cleaning brass.

And it looks like your oven is WAAAAAY to hot if it melted some boolits!

Been doin' this since we developed it many years ago on here. I now ESPC all my boolits. Nice even perfect coats every time. And I can spray powders that will not tumble coat!!!!!!

banger

correct answer. Bottom line though is if you have what looks like a clear coat over the entire bullet with no dull cast lead look anywhere your probably going to be able to shoot them. As to a bit of shown lead where they lay on the parchment paper or aluminum foil, don't worry about it. Ive shot thousands like that and that little showing lead does nothing to hurt a thing. personaly I think its a waste of time to stand up every little bullet in a nice neat row. Toss them on a cookie sheet and bake them. You get a few that stick together and cant be broke apart.No big deal just toss them back in the pot. this isn't rocket science. I do mine in a vibrating brass cleaner. I go a bit longer then you do. About 30 minutes. I bake them for about the same amount of time and do it at 420 because an oven set at 400 drops below 400 to much of the time. But that doesn't cause the light coverage look. That is in your paint. Id suggest you look at what "Smoke" sells and suggests. his powders are proven performers by him before he sells them. By the way I tried the plastic bbs and even cast #4 buckshot in my tumbler along with the bullets and found it does nothing. The bullets banging around and shaking is plenty to coat them. I do have a couple coffee cans of pretty collared buckshot though:coffee:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rancher1913

not all powder coat powder will tumble coat, start with a proven powder and you will remove a lot of the problems from the git go.

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Pan - yes large oversized will sometimes scrape the PC. I found one-shot ($$) or BLL (really light coat) makes sizing MUCH easier with almost no distortion or scraping. Might try some cheap liquid auto wax - just a tiny bit - I use ~ 4-5 DROPS - not drips per 100. Water works but then the sizer can rust - bad.
PC can take most any over temp cooking BUT if close to slump temp the alloy acts funny and the PC will peel off in strips. I've cooked PC for 1.5 hrs proper temp - no problem.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lloyd Smale

personaly I think its a waste of time to stand up every little bullet in a nice neat row. Toss them on a cookie sheet and bake them. You get a few that stick together and cant be broke apart.No big deal just toss them back in the pot. this isn't rocket science. I do mine in a vibrating brass cleaner. I go a bit longer then you do. About 30 minutes. I bake them for about the same amount of time and do it at 420 because an oven set at 400 drops below 400 to much of the time. But that doesn't cause the light coverage look. That is in your paint. Id suggest you look at what "Smoke" sells and suggests. his powders are proven performers

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Glad someone said this ever heard the phrase KISS
you can complicate anything.

The drop rag is suspect - I'd drop to a clean metal cookie-type pan. The crowded basket can be trouble - parchment paper in a pan is good and easy, crumpled and flattened a couple of times, just drop them from a kitchen strainer.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RJM_NY

Conditor22,

I've heard that yellow is a difficult color to PC. What brand and specific color are you using?

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Adding a little of another color to yellow helps it coat better

Just a suggestion on the procedures I follow. Bring all your PC paraphernalia for the shake part of the process into air conditioning. Eliminates the humidity problem. I use an empty 2 lb pistol powder container (# 2 on the bottom) with a screw-on lid with the bbs Smoke sells. I fill it nearly full with boolits, roll in on the floor, shake it around, then pour everything out into a plastic bowl with holes in the bottom and shake excess powder & bbs into bottom bowl. Dump boolits onto parchment paper which is in a basket I ordered off Amazon. Do all this in my basement using a mask to keep from breathing the PCing dust. Baking is done outside. Have only enjoyed success with this method. Big Boomer

Its NOT ROCKET science!!

Lloyd given it to ya straight.

The idea is to generate static. Do wjat ever ys need to accomplish this and the powder will stick.

BUT!! BUT also as mentioned NOT ALL POWDERS work S&B!!

Smokes will sell ya powders HE KNOWS WORK with S&B!!

Now Eastwood FLB IS A VERY EASY powder and almost works TOO GOOD at times. Meaning ya get a VERY HEAVY coat if ya aint careful!! Heavie coats STICK TO EVERYTHING!!!

Swirl dont shake.

Its said #5 recycling plastics are best. (#2 work perfectly for me)

Plastic BB or beads simply increase surface area. This promotes more static faster. Neith with or with out is wrong.

Try smaller batches keep SINGLE layer on the baking tray at first. Till
You perfect your task.

Also WARMING your bullets can be a deal changer. I simply place the basket with the qualtity wanted on top Of the oven as it warms.

GET A THERMOMETER!! KNOW dont guess at the temp.

Longer baking GENERALLY isnt a issue but too short SURELY can be!

DONT handle your bullets before coating.

A long handles soup spoon is a very usedul tool.

Use CLEAN WATER to quench. This WILL NOT cause you issues. (As long as the bullets are dry)

Clean towels also help ya!

Bake on a tray bake in a basket. Bake standing up or laying down. Its NOT GONNA EFFECT OUTCOME!! Only difference will be looks and depending upon your level of OCD... It is what it is. :) But know its not gonna effect preformance.

Here is most of my process:

https://youtu.be/w6lDHPWbyPc

Good luck!

CW