So, you want to hunt with cast boolits?

Hunting with cast boolits requires some deep thought. I've seen hardening by water quenching, super hard alloys etc. The truth is a combination of both hardness and velocity will net best results.

Any cast combination requires a boolit to expand at a predetermined hardness and velocity. I have found over many years that an alloy that is relatively soft with base protected by a gas check will work best. The 30.06 with a 210gn Lyman boolit when cast 1:30 and driven to 1740fps is an effective hunting round.

For plain based boolits a velocity in the 1100 to 1400fps expands well using an alloy of 1:40. As seen below, recovered boolits show perfect expansion. The little 80gn 25/20 was recovered from a head shot fox at approximately 80 yards.

L to R : 520gn 45/70, 250gn Long Colt, 420gn 45/70, 50 cal muzzleloader, 80gn 25/20

https://i.imgur.com/A1Yx72q.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/4aMC0cKl.jpg

Good info and that’s a nice Springfield 03 sporter as well!

I shoot the lee 309-150 over 35 grn of Varget PCed in my TC compass I use 75/25+2%tin(ww/Pb)
It expands fantastic at my velocity and accounted for over a dozen deer killed this year, all bang flops

Attachment 258506Attachment 258507. Exit hole from 134yards

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Originally Posted by WinchesterM1

I shoot the lee 309-150 over 35 grn of Varget PCed in my TC compass I use 75/25+2%tin(ww/Pb)
It expands fantastic at my velocity and accounted for over a dozen deer killed this year, all bang flops

Attachment 258506Attachment 258507. Exit hole from 134yards

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What caliber? What velocity?

Im not sure what to do with rifle, last deer season i had 220gr cast 30-06 AC 2.5%sb 3%sn at 1900 mv. I shot at one with a solid rest and missed from brush deflection. Then my grampa with identical boolits hit one broadside at 100yds and didnt go far but got no exit wound. I got 2 before that with my cast in inline and 170gr 30-06 and got no exit would either, but in fairness those were a bit lengthwise. Im just gonna use 44mag rifle with 300gr wfn until i see a boolit go through a deer

Cool and cool! So my 16:1 lead flooring and pewter mix I use in the Lyman devastator is to hard at 1600 FPS?

I'm puzzled at the bullets that don't fully penetrate a deer. I can not remember an elk I have shot with cast that the bullet didn't penetrate fully.

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Originally Posted by waksupi

I'm puzzled at the bullets that don't fully penetrate a deer. I can not remember an elk I have shot with cast that the bullet didn't penetrate fully.

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I agree!

To the OP, we are all entitled to our opinions as you and I both are. IMHO your not listing facts of what a boolit has to be or do, you are just giving your opinion and that is all it is. As I have stated my opinion of your post in knowing it is just your opinion.

Ken

I had been hunting with cast bullets in muzzle loaders for years successfully before I got the urge to try "small bores" with cast. After killing one with a .30-30 using the 31141 cast of wheel weights plus 2% tin (which worked well, but a very close shot and I had some evidence of bullet fracture) I read more and took Larry's advice to use 50/50 wheel weights to pure with 2% of the wheel weight in tin added. His advice was to use a heavy for caliber bullet with a flat nose and push this alloy to 1800-2000 FPS and it will equal a dead deer if put in the vitals. After killing quite a few using this methodology in various .30s, a .32 Special, a couple of .35s and one 7mm, I can say he is absolutely right. It really is that simple.

Besides the muzzle loaders, I only ever killed one with a plain based bullet and it was in a .45-70, so expansion become kind of unimportant. Cast works fine for deer hunting you just have to do a little work and have to be able to make a good shot.

I agree with the above post and have found that the 50/50 mix with a little tin mixed into the ww mix will do an awesome job on most game at reasonable distances. I also found that without the lead mix added in that I got boolit fragmenting with just wheel weight material. Not being as savvy as some when it comes to boolit composition I just assume the brittleness of the wheel weight was a result of too much % of antimony. At any rate I have taken numerous deer and one black bear with that combination in my 35 Whelen.

yeah antimony isn't really what you want in something that expands to a large degree, like a long 30 cal can pretty much triple caliber expand which that degree of stretching is a lot to ask of the metal. in water tests ive compared 1.5% to 2.5% and both got the same size but the 2.5% developed individual petals sort of palm tree style. and the 1.5 is a normal round mushroom. so point being have tin but only as much antimony as needed if you dealing with something that stretches a lot.

You need your tin equal or greater than the percentage of antimony. 3-3-94 is a much better alloy than 2-3-95 (ww +2% tin).

When every antimony molecule has a tin molecule to bond with, they will bond and the alloy becomes much more ductile. You can see this by the fact that hot molds and hot lead will not make frosty bullets, even if it it stays liquid for 10 seconds on the sprue plate.

3-3-94 will have 100% weight retention and solid mushrooms. No splitting or fracturing in the mushroom. I also notice that antimony tin alloys will have more of a large, square perpindicular mushroom, where pure lead or lead tin alloys the mushroom will fold backagainst the shank. The flat muchroom acts like a huge wadcutter and can really limit penetration compared to a round ball profile mushroom of the same caliber. I have seen antimony tin alloys with the same load and expanded diameter penetrate less in water jugs and I assume the flat .65ish meplat is doing a lot more work a lot more quickly than a .65ish round ball profile.

Shot three good sized does this year with cast out of a 308. All had exits. One was nearly head on an exit was in the flank. The third was fully head on and exit was through the back of the ham. Bullet was 180 gr #315 Saeco clone. I’m not home and don’t remember the exact alloy, but something like 1.5 Sn, 2.7 Sb. PC’d and water dropped from the PC oven. Velocity was 2150.

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Originally Posted by Thumbcocker

What caliber? What velocity?

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Not to hi jack a thread here is my write up on it

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...th-308-hunting

i have shot 6 or 7 deer with the (.311") 165gr ranch dog in 30-40 krag at about 30 - 140 yards. my son also uses my krag and he kills 7 -8 deer and his are 20-173 yards(laser range finder). it penetrates deer completely. my alloy is 10 coww and about 1/4 tin. the 165gr ranch dog is going 1930fps with h4198.


this was dug up at my 50 yard berm. the 2nd picture (left and right) is the 165gr rd. (the other 4 are .432" 444 marlin)

My tests in gel have consistently demonstrated that binary or balanced alloys of tin-to-antimony are ideal if expansion is desired.

I have also found that below ~1400 FPS IMPACT velocity one cannot expect expansion from a solid. Hollowpoints expand well down to ~800 FPS impact velocity provided alloy is soft enough 1:32 expands at 800 reliably, 1:16 at 900 reliably.

When using smallbore solids one must have sufficient velocity that at impact you are about 1500 or greater, otherwise you will drill a caliber sized hole and it will be a long, slow death or a no-recovery situation.

A good way to think about this is WOUND VOLUME. Think of the wound as a geometric cylinder in the animal. The equation of a cylinder is area of a hole multiplied by distance of penetration. So a 30 cal solid that hits and doesn't expand and passes through a deer generates a wound volume of only 1.79 cubic inches if it penetrates 2 feet of flesh (a generous figure for a deer). Compare this to a 44 special handgun with a cast solid weighing 250 grains or so. It will generate 3.49 cubic inches of wound volume penetrating the same distance (which it would be expected to do at a velocity of about 900 FPS or greater). Now, if that 30 cal was soft, heavy, and fast enough it will generate around 4 cubic inches of wound volume. In order to do this it will require approximately twice to three times the amount of powder, recoil harder, and need to be launched from a rifle... And knowing how soft, heavy, and fast is not easy to figure out without testing before hand while the solid low velocity bullet is boringly predictable.

If you are going for expansion make sure to use a heavy enough bullet to penetrate reliably. 170 grains and up is about right for deer with 30 caliber it seems. 220 is great for anything bigger.

The point I have not found to matter much. I did comparison testing of round nosed projectiles vs. flat nose. At high velocity they both mushroom. At low velocity they both make caliber sized holes. I have found flat points more accurate and easier to load, so I prefer them for that reason. Perhaps the meplat imparts "shock" perhaps it doesn't. All I can say is I've found no evidence for it other than flat points max expand at slightly lower velocities than round noses, but it is not much.

Basically with cast bullet hunting you have four strategies that I can think of, but mixing them can be problematic.

1) large caliber solids at high velocity in rifles. Cartridges like 45-70 HV loads, 444 marlin, 375 Winchester. These will have sufficient velocity across the range, do not need expansion, and can be cast hard. Easy to develop loads. Easy to cast for. Hard on the shoulder though.

2) large caliber solids at low velocity in handguns or rifles. Cartridges like 44 SPL, 44 Mag, 45 Colt. Even at low velocities the solids will cut a caliber sized hole through most animals, as these are excellent perpetrators. They cut a fairly moderate sized wound even without expansion, though their terminal performance will be less than spectacular as the wound they create is not terribly large. In rifles and sometimes handguns you can get them going fast enough to even produce expansion at impact if the alloy is soft enough, but if it is not enough it still will cut a caliber sized hole. Easy and cheap to load and shoot, develop loads, etc. But range is a limitation.

3) small-medium caliber high velocity in rifles. If alloy is soft enough and velocity adequate they can mushroom to 1.4-2x the caliber. So a 30 will mushroom up to about 45-60 caliber, cutting a hole about the same size or larger than a large caliber solid. If mass is adequate it can penetrate through the animal. Think 30-30 and 30-40 etc. Muzzle velocities need to be up to about 2000 FPS if you want good performance at extended ranges (staying above ~1500 impact velocity). Velocity is half of the momentum equation along with mass...it is momentum that pushes through the critter. This is why small calibers are for rifles and not for handguns. Handguns (besides exotic ones like Contenders, XP100s, S&W X Frames) typically do not have long enough barrels to get the needed velocity. But this approach offers good range without breaking the shoulder/bank.

4) Medium large caliber hollowpoints at low velocities. Hollowpointing allows the bullet to expand 1.5-2x caliber at lower velocities down to 800-900 FPS. Provided enough mass they can push through. The rub is that they can be going too fast and fragment. Past 1400 I've not found any cast HP that can really hold together and penetrate adequately. Also, HPs tend to be too light to get the needed penetration. For example, in 357 mag a 162 grain HP will not penetrate much past 18" no matter what velocity it is launched at or what alloy it is made of (though I have not tried copper containing alloys) that will expand it because expansion, velocity, and mass are all antagonistically related. A very heavy hollowpoint can drive deeper. Range is a limitation. This is by far the trickiest and most difficult way to go, though it has its benefits, allowing a smaller lighter firearm and it is going to be more fun, cheaper, and easy on the shoulder.

And a final note. Placing the shot through a vital part of the animal trumps everything. A little 22 caliber hole through the aorta or heart or brain or spinal cord is going to beat a 12 gauge slug through the butt, ear, tail. This is why it should not be overlooked using a more moderate cartridge you enjoy shooting which promotes practice and enables good shooting. A hit with anything is going to beat a miss with a 16" naval gun.

Tried the expansion thing on a hog, expansion and pass-thru in gut, not in shoulder. 185GC Fn 30/30 close range. Hog actually terminated by spine shot from 3-4 115gr FMJ 9mm. Hit a hog at 25 yds with 165gr hard 40sw, broke shoulder and exited under jaw - entered by the tail. Tracked the blood 10 yds or so. Both were 150# or so, bout the same size as TX deer so I'd stay with the hard.

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Originally Posted by popper

Tried the expansion thing on a hog, expansion and pass-thru in gut, not in shoulder. 185GC Fn 30/30 close range. Hog actually terminated by spine shot from 3-4 115gr FMJ 9mm. Hit a hog at 25 yds with 165gr hard 40sw, broke shoulder and exited under jaw - entered by the tail. Tracked the blood 10 yds or so. Both were 150# or so, bout the same size as TX deer so I'd stay with the hard.

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Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but you're basing that conclusion on one animal that was gut shot?

Purpose test with 1% tin. 30 in ~45 out of gut. Shoulder shot not recovered, no exit. Expansion or not did it bust something? Couldn't tell. No blood out! Heard lots of expanding cast found under offside hide.

Well, of the ones I've shot with cast (.30-30, .300 Savage, .308, .32 Winchester Special, .351 WSL, .358 Winchester, .45-70 and 7x57 Mauser) only one bullet stayed in a deer, the 7x57 and it traveled nearly lengthwise of the deer to lodge just under the hide at the brisket. The 7mm was also a hollow point (see picture) which may have had something to do with it. All were cast soft except the .45-70 bullet, I wanted to use one my dad had cast and he wasn't a hunter, so all of his he cast real hard. Attachment 258616

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Tried the expansion thing on a hog, expansion and pass-thru in gut, not in shoulder.

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This makes sense. The shoulder bones on hogs are very massive compared to similar weight animals like deer (which have very fragile shoulders even for a quadruped). Even little 200 lb calves have much sturdier shoulders (I have done a few veal).

Actually scapula (shoulder blade) is approx. same size in both and really only large bone in either. Biggest diff. is longer legs, neck and everything is a bit lower in hogs. Pound for pound, deer legs are larger dia. than hog legs. Learned a lot watching 10 of each get field processed and some of the hogs were 350+. Hogs have more shoulder muscle/gristle due to rooting/digging feeding habits. The one I shot with pistol had broken shoulder and lots of bone protruding from below the jaw so probably lower jaw/ribs/etc. They all get dragged off to the yote pile.