Lee powder dippers...really dumb question

For years, I used my Lee dippers to measure rifle charges. I'd pick a dipper that charged a bit less than my intended weight, then trickle to zero on my scale.

Handgun? Seldom used them, because I couldn't figure out how.
This is what I did: My powder holder is/was a teacup, probably 3/4 full, replenished when the level got low. Anything else I could find was too shallow to allow full immersion of the dipper. I would slide the dipper into the powder at a 45 degree angle, or just sink it into the powder, then pull it out, wipe the extra off with a business card, then weigh a random charge, just to check. I don't even approach maximum with my loads. Belt and suspenders? Maybe...but am I doing it properly?

You read here and there about fellows that just dip and card off the extra, and never touch a scale. I'm afraid I don't have that super power, so is there something else or different I could be doing?

Thanx!:D

I've only used the dippers for black powder substitutes. I do not weigh that powder because I found out that equal amounts from the dipper DO NOT necessarily weigh the same.

I use them pretty much as you do...'dip and trickle' and I find them handy when working up loads for a new profile.
I insert the dipper into this spray paint can lid butt first and come up straight out of the powder to over fill the dipper.

https://i.imgur.com/OSvQBd8.jpg

A friend, Harry at 'Backyard Inventors' gave me a little tip that works well...he suggested gluing the little wooden stick across the lid to wipe the dipper under to level it off.

Thanks Harry

https://i.imgur.com/PNRIbYZ.jpg

I use them as you described, but only for working up a new load. Close with the dipper and trickle to exact. Once I have the load then the Lee auto drum is set to throw the charges. It always is within 0.1 grains and is checked visually. My 20 or so hunting loads for the year are all weighed to the exact 0.1 grains.

Sounds like your doing it right. Consistency is the key find a way you can repeat exactly every time and work it. when I use dippers I weight and trickle up to dead zero also. I make my own dippers as needed. Its not hard to do. I use an aluminum tray one of my meds come in. Its 2" X3" X1 1/2" deep. Experiment with them and find what works for you. With some rifle powders a very light tap before screeding off helps settle the charge, just use the business card and give a light tap on the handle close to the cup.

To build confidence and consistency throw charges and weight them. chart progress. After a few hundred charges youll see they get closer in weight and more consistent. A dipper in the right hands can be very accurate

I use them as you've described-- balance scale (RCBS 505) is zeroed on desired charge weight. Dip, dump into pan, and trickle until the balance arm is on zero. I agree with your finding that generally the advertised capacity of the dipper does not match the charge table and is almost always less with the powder for which it is advised to be used. I'd ask Mr. Lee about it, but he's no longer with us. I think it was a built in fudge for safety and a hedge against liability. As for handgun cartridges, again I usually weigh each charge for those of which I shoot fewer, but for the ones of which I used a lot, like .38 Spec. and .45 ACP I used a bench mounted Lee Perfect Powder Measure which I have found to be very accurate. But, you know, whether a scoop or a bench powder measure, it is all measurement by volume. If one is a true fan of the dipper method they can make their own dippers from scrap cartridge cases, starting with a long one and gradually filing it down until it throws exactly the desired charge for any particular given cartridge and powder. You can solder a wire handle onto the new case to make it handy.

I think the Lee dippers weigh a bit light so if you dip by plunging the dipper into the powder open end first and leave it plied up the weights will be ok.
I have made my own dippers from cases. I have one that dips 8.5 grs of Unique. I can dip it to within .1 grs quite easily.
I use that when assembling my mid range 44 Mag loads. The Lyman 429421 wd coww lubed with LLA, no sizing, over the 8.5 grs Unique from the dipper is much quicker than setting up the measure.
For the full bore loads I use the measure set and checked often on the scale.
I seldom do the tickle deal. Once I get the measure set and operate it consistently it throws with .1 grs. Close enough for my loading.
If you want to get good with a dipper Just dip and weigh charges. Don't actually load just dip and weigh. Try a few different ways of dipping. Practice till it feels natural. With a consistent method you may surprise yourself at how good you can dip.
If I want to get more precise my scales are sensitive enough to read a single granule of a stick powder like IMR 4831, 4350 and 4064.
It just takes a bit of practice with what ever method you use to get consistent results.
Leo

Double check what your dippers dip , using the technique you use , with a scale . The "chart" isn't always exactly right and the method / technique you use to dip can result in a heavier / lighter charge weight .

I have used dippers for years and find they can be extremely consistent , you are looking at the "dip" and if something looks amiss , simply dump the powder back in the cup and re-dip .
I also like the fact I can watch the powder go into the case and see the dipper is empty...
kind of a simple process with not a lot to malfunction...and you don't have to reset your measure.
Gary

Sounds like the right technique. I have an auto drum, but its for another caliber. But I use a homemade dipper from a 22lr case and a piece of copper wire for 380. I checked the first 100 or so on the scale, and my technique was scary accurate. Ran the next 20 without weighing the charge, went out and chronod them, looked good. Still using that same homeade dipper.

This was not a max charge. Just a practice load.

I use the dippers way more that I use my bench mounted measure now days.I find it a lot quicker to charge a tray with them than to fiddle with the measure,and drop and weigh several charges just to dump them back in the measure,and then when you are satisified you still will need to trickle powder in your pan,and dump a few charges that weigh heavy.My method for the dippers is to pour my powder in small food storage container,and use a dipper that is close,but a hair small.I put one scoop in my pan,and put the pan on the scale,and usually using the same dipper just tap a few more peices into it till I get my weight.I then dump my charge and place the empty pan back on the scales at least once on every row to make sure they still read zero.I find this method best for me,but it won’t be favored by all.

The Lee Loader kit which is complete includes a Lee dipper that can provide suitable loads for the loader caliber. They describe exactly the technique you use as being appropriate for them. In the instructions I think is where I read it or in one of the early Reloading Handbooks by Richard Lee.

By pulling the scoop down into the powder backwards you avoid packing powder with would cause an inconsistent charge even if not an overcharge. Striking the top with a business card is also described. I like that idea of gluing a stick across the container to strike the load off level.

Scoop is a volume measure, your other powder measures are filling a volume with powder. Difference is only scoop isn't adjustable and doesn't have its own powder reservoir. People make scoops from small bullet cases ground down to a size specific to their favorite load of a specific powder. People buy the individual scoops and do something similar. I seem to recall one person used wax to take up extra space in a scoop then used a drill bit or similar tool to remove wax down to an exact load.

Little more fussy than a bench top but if one is consistent I don't find them to be less accurate, have used them for shotgun or 38 special and checks with a scale of every few rounds showed as accurate as powder measure when I did my part with care.

I've used the lee dippers without verifying them against a scale if the charge was at the starting level. Normally I work a load up with scale and measure, and if I'm lucky my dippers will hit close to what I like. Once I verify it I don't check again until I change lot numbers of powder.

I strike the dippers with the edge of the powder funnel. And use a 1/2 cup aluminum measuring cup for a powder container. If I want to take some powder with me for say a lee loader, I have a small kraft mayo jar that holds right at 3/4 cup of powder. I put a label on it with what powder.

I rarely weigh charges except to check my measure. I set my measure or check it if it's already set, then I check the last throw for a block of 50, along with visual inspection for powder level in the cases.

That paint cup with the stick wiper is an elegant solution to this little problem OS OK. Nice!

That's a great idea, OS OK. I've got some bamboo squewers I'll make one out of

The method the OP is using is what is recommended by Lee. I tried this when I first started reloading with a Lee Loader, before I got a scale. But that was about 40 years ago and I like to experiment. Sorta "I wonder if...". I got pretty good with the dippers and I found I could vary the charge by a bit over one full grain with different methods (dip & strike as per instructions, dip mouth forward & strike, run through powder mouth forward, once and forward twice. All gave different charges). With using dippers, whether stock Lee, modified Lee or home made, consistency of method is key. When I was on a roll, after quite a bit of practice, I could hold less than .2-.3 grain with W231...

I also modified some of the dippers; to make a charge lighter I could add a drop of epoxy in the cavity and to make the charge heavier I could enlarge the cavity either by slightly reaming or drilling a bit deeper.

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Originally Posted by sparkyv

That paint cup with the stick wiper is an elegant solution to this little problem OS OK. Nice!

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Originally Posted by jonp

That's a great idea, OS OK. I've got some bamboo squewers I'll make one out of

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Thanks boys . . . but . . . I can't claim it. Backyard Inventor gave it to me...he's the one with a brain!

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Originally Posted by OS OK

Thanks boys . . . but . . . I can't claim it. Backyard Inventor gave it to me...he's the one with a brain!

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LOL, nice to see I'm not the only one that says "Why didn't I think of that"?

You're using them the same way that I did. I even used a coffee cup as a container. I don't use them much since I bought a ChargeMaster. I also have a small box of homemade dippers that I bought from a member on another forum that are made from cartridge cases. Mostly just for the "cool" factor. Many of them were made from obsolete cases, even some large caliber rimfire pistol cases.

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Originally Posted by lightman

You're using them the same way that I did. I even used a coffee cup as a container. I don't use them much since I bought a ChargeMaster. I also have a small box of homemade dippers that I bought from a member on another forum that are made from cartridge cases. Mostly just for the "cool" factor. Many of them were made from obsolete cases, even some large caliber rimfire pistol cases.

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Quite a few from what I've seen do that, lightman. I've always used Lee Dippers and have had good results. How's your cartridge collection doing?

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Originally Posted by jonp

Quite a few from what I've seen do that, lightman. I've always used Lee Dippers and have had good results. How's your cartridge collection doing?

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Its slowed down some. I cut an overhead kitchen cabinet down that was saved from a recent kitchen remodel that I hope to get mounted after hunting season closes. My out grew my other display.

Thanks for asking.

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Originally Posted by jonp

LOL, nice to see I'm not the only one that says "Why didn't I think of that"?

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Yup! Me, too, I also intend to try that!:)

I've been using them for years. I have an old red Thermos style top that I pour the powder into.
For my hunting loads I'll dip and trickle on the scale, for pistol loads that will be shot at paper or steel I'll just dip and fill the case, except with Bullseye, but only because my RCBS powder measure is set for the load that shoots best in my 9 mm pistols. But following directions in the box won't result in a damaged rifle or handgun, at least not for me. The printed charges seem a bit light to me.

I only use dippers with stick powder for trickling up into a scale.
I do use them all the time for finer powders.
I have a small bottle with a wire across it for scraping as well.

I do use some cases that I use without handle and use a larger dipper to fill and scrape off.
I can then upturn a case over the dipper and put upright again allowing the measure to rest in the case mouth while I sort out a bullet to place in it.

I tend to melt lead in my cases and drill out to the weight needed.
A small bit of solder or lead and a flame will soon top it up if I get over jealous.

I keep trying to think up a easy portable powder measuring device thou.

One thing about using a dipper is the volume never changes, even if the weight of different lots of powder does. Say you use a 1cc dipper for a 13.5 gr charge of 2400. This is a good charge for .357Mag and 158gr bullets. If your next can of powder has less moisture content, you still will have the same size powder column in the case, even though the weight of the charge may have changed. Same thing if your next can has more moisture content, the powder column is still the same, regardless of the weight of the charge.

Sounds like what I do when I use them for rifle loads . I seldom do but use them quite often for revolver loads .

I use home made dippers to fill in where the LEE dippers fall short for the load I want.
I just weigh up the load I want and select an empty case that will hold the load.
I dump the pre-weighed charge into the case with a funnel.
Then I just measure from the lip down to the powder .
I then transfer this measurement to the outside of the case.
Dump the powder and cut the case at the measured mark.
Smooth off the case edge and attach a suitable handle.
Check your dipper again by dipping loads and weighing them on the scale.
If a little heavy, you can lightly file to adjust.
If you are careful at measuring and cutting you can make a custom dipper for any load and any powder.
Practicing dipping and using a light side wise shake will work just as well as striking off with a business card.
Of course I would never make a dipper up for a maximum load and trust it.
I have never trusted a powder measure either.
For a max load you must make a dipper that always throws just lite enough into your scale pan, then trickle up using a teaspoon or a powder trickler.

I dip and trickle when using my Lee hand press indoors when it's too hot in the garage to run my loading bench gear.

Interesting thread about some often forgotten hand tools especially the dippers, yet the thread seems to open and shut for no good reason. We all know that the little suckers are worthwhile even if as a back up or for when you are away from your bench. There are some really good comments in here and if more people would "fess up" I think we would see the thread continue on a fairly regular basis. Right now with so many new folks trying reloading you have a difficult time finding conventional powder measures at "normal" prices unless you get pretty lucky. I hope the dippers, hand presses, and the like make a resurgence because they work.

Most of the time I can find a good accurate load using the dippers. I have both the Red and Yellow set. It seems one set fills in the gap for the other with different powders

Given my first reloading was a LEE Classic that came in a cardboard box, I grew to become very familiar with that little dipper thing that came with it. I later moved up to a full set of dippers and still have most of them. Having no scale in the beginning, I put my trust in the data that came with the kit and began my new hobby. I later tried a few handgun kits and decided buying a full set of dippers may be to my advantage. Needless to say, I've came a long ways in the past 40+ years. I have 3 different powder measures, a couple of tricklers, and my Lee Dippers will always be right there handy.

Murphy

Good for you Murphy. I think you pointed out the key element of what I was trying to say and "keeping the dippers handy" as a back up or supplement to our typical enthusiasm for acquiring multiple powder measures, dippers, scales etc. The dippers are always there if you need them. It also promotes some of the reloading basic elements which we need to pass along to new reloading participants.