Rifle Vs 12 Gauge For "Discouraging" Large Bears

I'm planning a trip out west, and plan to do some hiking, knowing what i do about the bears out there I've decided it a good idea to take a precaution of the lead dispensing variety. I've narrowed it down to a very nice Model 70, 300 Win Mag, "Sporter Magnum" with 220gr Silvertips, or my Mossberg 535 with either hard cast .69 balls at 1600 fps, or a hard cast double .600 ball load at 1300 fps. For those of you who are more familiar with these animals than I am, what would be better suited to remedying a problem of the Ursid variety?

Your chances of getting struck by lightning might be better then a deadly bear encounter.
But, I'd take the shotgun with heavy slugs.

PS, If you're hiking in the mountains and a thunderstorm shows up, ditch the lightning rod you have for a gun.

You're going to receive a lot opinions.

I think a 1 oz piece of soft lead that is travelling over 1300 fps will do a lot of damage. There would be little need for long ranges in that application and the large frontal area of the projectile may also be an advantage.

There is a small increase in reliability with metallic cartridges when dealing with wet weather conditions but I think most shotgun loads can be waterproofed reasonably well for extended field use.

If a rifle was selected, I would gravitate towards slow & heavy, like .45-70. Again, the ranges are short and you need to inflict as much devastation as possible if you want to stop bad things from happening in very close quarters.

All of that being said, I'm with Hickory, the odds are very much in your favor.

As an all-around tool, I think a shotgun is a more useful device than a rifle.

More people die from worrying about bear attacks then bear attacks!

I agree with Hickory. Your chances being attacked by a bear while hiking are up there with getting eaten by a shark while swimming in the ocean. I'd just carry a handgun, pepper spray and if I thought a bear was around a bell or something to make noise all of which I did while cruising timber out west. Walked a ton of miles and never saw a bear. Your more likely to get attacked or robbed by a fellow hiker than mauled by a bear.

Keep your eyes open and be alert then just enjoy your hike. Take average precautions like storing food away from the tents, clean the dishes away from you, don't wear meat smelling cologne, etc

Good morning
I would also carry a 12 bore with slugs. But not the hollow type that work OK on deer. Use the solid types that penetrate much better.
We ran tests 25 years ago due to Forster types slugs that will not penetrate large crocodiles at very close range out on jungle rivers. Round ball cast of wheel weight out penetrated all. But the solid slugs did very well also and you can buy them near everywhere.
They penetrate reliably, deep and put a horrendous "thwap" on target.
Mike in ILLinois

I agree about the chances of its happening. Imagine going on an expensive trip with a bear tag and someone who isn't an experienced and recognised bear guide, and you can imagine what your chances of coming close to a bear might be. If you aren't hunting you have the added advantage of being able to make human noises as you go.

Bears are only dangerous when you are close to them, and I can't see any meaningful distinction in value between the two weapons under consideration. Both are about as good as they come. Unless you are a lot more familiar with the workings of one than the other, that is. My ancient friends in childhood were still poking fun at one of their number who cannoned into a German officer on a trench raid in Flanders. The officer dropped his Luger, and the soldier handed it back to him with a polite apology. The German very understandably dropped it again, cracking one of the grips.

The moral of the story is that people make silly mistakes under sudden stress. You need a firearm you can operate as surely as you use a knife and fork.

That sounds like good advice about the solid ball or solid slug. Perhaps in most shots the hollow-based Foster slug would be just as good. But there are some in which it may fail, and you are playing for higher stakes than a moose carcass.

The heavyweight ball it is. Thanks. I'm not paranoid about a bear attack, we have bears here too, just not the grizzly and brown variety. An old friend of mine who spent a couple years living out in Stewart B.C cautioned me that unlike the bears here in Ontario, the big ones out west tend to hunt you right back. Now, I'm not going hunting, but I am going to be about 2500 miles from home, in entirely new (to me) territory, so I just want to have my bases covered.

For what its worth I would also suggest the shotgun, my preference would be a short barreled pump with slugs.

I have carried 12 gauge for bear discouragement while trapping bait (leeches commercialy) at nite. This involves carrying a pail or two of raw bait in the bush to and from ponds in the dark of night, trust me when I say you haven't experienced a surprise till you set the pail down and a large black bear sticks his head in it the second you let go of the handle. My circumstances are probably different than most but if you have a 12 gauge it will certainly intimidate a bear and IF you have to defend rather than scare it will most likely give the best chance with a slug or 00 buck. I haven't had to kill a bear yet but I certainly have had to evict them from my boat and my truck, black powder blanks work well if you chance up on a bear and want to send him away, but carry pre loaded with buck or slug when unsure while walking. Mostly they don't come looking for you, you usually walk up on them they don't prefer your company either. If he follows you, you wont have a lot of warning, figure on muzzle contact with him.

If I’m ever worried I carry my S&W 329 pd 44 mag titanium with a 2” bbl. Its so light i forget I’m carrying it. Its accurate enough to hit pop cans at 30 yards. If I really wanted to lug a heavy rifle I’d take my 375 RUM. My pick between your two would be a shotgun with some heavy shot 00 buck. I think federal still makes it. I’m never lucky enough to have a close encounter I can’t get out of when carrying. I had a small black bear walk up to me when I was bow hunting. It was about a foot away from my cocked crossbow with the arrow aimed at its head. Neither of us were paying attention and that’s how we ended up so close. I was on my knees looking at an arrow that passed though a 7’6” blackie that had a 19 3/16” skull. The little bear came up the path coming to the bait and I was in his way. It had its nose to the ground and looked up at me, I said hey! We both turned around a ran in different directions. I headed to my tree stand. I wasn’t more than 7’ in the air and a 250 lb blacking was walking under me going to the bait. I stayed in my stand till the guide came to get me and retrieve my bear. Pretty exciting 2nd trip to Canada. I’ve had a few drop out of the trees within 10-15 ft running dogs after being shot And they’ve gotten up and run the opposite way. Most black bears are more afraid of you than you are of them but I’m sure grizzlies are another story.

So the obvious question to ask our resident actuaries is whether they own insurance. I bet they do.

The Mossberg. Your round ball, or Brenekke slugs, for daytime and 00 Buck for camp at night. A far more concerning risk lies with predators of the two legged variety - much less predictable and substantially more vicious than bears.

There around 3 deaths by bear a year (2 to 5 each year). I would not want to be one of the three. I would just go with a handgun and pepper spray in the fire extinguisher size. With a shotgun Brenneke make sense. The Green Lightning are the same as the Red Special Forces. The Penetrator, Black Magic, or Magnum Crush would work well. The recoil of the Magnum Crush is crazy. I would just get the green ones if I picked a shotgun.

I live in bear country in the West Kootenays, B.C. We have lots of black bears and increasing numbers of grizzlies. I am not much of a hunter but do spend a lot of time in the bush. I have had many close encounters with black bears but they are normally quite timid locally and will run off if they spot a human. Grizzlies likely not so much but so far I haven't been close enough to worry about them.

Contrary to the black bears locally, I also lived in Kemano on B.C.'s North coast and the black bears there were very aggressive! There were large grizzly population there so I think the black bears had to toughen up to survive. I suspect you'll find similar minded black bears in the Stewart area along with large grizzly populations. I'd go prepared.

While .300 Win mag is a powerful round it wouldn't be my choice for close up bear protection. My take is that there could be a significant chance of bullet blow up or fragmentation at close range if a big bone is hit. My opinion only.

As stated above, I'd go with slow and heavy rather than ubermagnum relatively lightweight (180 gr.) high velocity bullet. I think a solid slug like Brenneke or hard cast round ball is a far better choice. The Lyman sabot slug or 1 oz. Lee Drive Key slug cast from wheelweights should be good too.

Another good option could be Dixie Tri-Ball though I'm not sure if they are commercially available now and home load development could take some time. I think Tri-Ball would be a good bear stopper though.

Again, just my opinion to throw in the mix.

Longbow

Dixie is not only selling the Tri Ball, but the IXL Dagerous Game Slug as well. Those are the two best options. I was trying to keep it simple. But for sure, Dixie is the best of the best.

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Originally Posted by jmort

Dixie is not only selling the Tri Ball, but the IXL Dagerous Game Slug as well. Those are the two best options. I was trying to keep it simple. But for sure, Dixie is the best of the best.

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Given the 2 options you mention I concur with jmort.

As mentioned the chances (odds) of getting attacked by a bear are slim. However, bear in mind (pun intended), that those who have been attacked and didn't have a gun probably would wish they had a gun........

If you are practised up, either a big revolver (.454,480), or a short lever .45/70, as long as you are comfortable using them under stress.

I'm in the 12 gage crowd; plenty of power and a little less weight for the hike.

I would go for a handgun, just for convenience sake, but keep in mind that Canadian law does not allow a person to carry and handgun in the woods for defensive purposes, unless you're licensed to do so on your own trap line.

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Originally Posted by longbow

While .300 Win mag is a powerful round it wouldn't be my choice for close up bear protection. My take is that there could be a significant chance of bullet blow up or fragmentation at close range if a big bone is hit. My opinion only.

Longbow

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Exactly why I'd go for the 220gr Silvertip, they go at about 2800fps, and don't suffer from the same issues as their lighter counterparts. I think what I'll do is load up some double .69 ball loads, at 475gr a ball, the total payload will be less than 2 1/4oz. If I can get that much shot to 1200fps no problem, the two balls should be able to do about the same.

It is a question of gun handling for me. Given the two choices the 300 Mag. with 220's is unquestionably more powerful and likely to penetrate and break bones if, you can bring it into action rapidly and accurately at close quarters.
A short barrel pump shotgun loaded with Brenneke's or the saboted 50 caliber penetrators will also penetrate and break bones. The shotgun would be much faster to bring to bear and with repeat shots. I would leave the buckshot behind, big bears need penetration and breaking of bones....even double ought buck lacks both unless close enough to act like a slug.
So, my choice is the shotgun, with premium penetrating slugs, easier to carry and easier to use at close range.

^^^ No, not true.

"Magnum Crush™
Our Hardest Hitting Slug:
When the going get rough, you need a specialist. That´s when you can count on our Magnum Crush™. It is our hardest hitting slug, delivering a tremendous force of more than 3,800 ft/lbs. So the name Crush comes obvious."

That is a .730 caliber 666 grain slug with way more penetration.

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Originally Posted by brass410

I have carried 12 gauge for bear discouragement while trapping bait (leeches commercialy) at nite. This involves carrying a pail or two of raw bait in the bush to and from ponds in the dark of night, trust me when I say you haven't experienced a surprise till you set the pail down and a large black bear sticks his head in it the second you let go of the handle. My circumstances are probably different than most but if you have a 12 gauge it will certainly intimidate a bear and IF you have to defend rather than scare it will most likely give the best chance with a slug or 00 buck. I haven't had to kill a bear yet but I certainly have had to evict them from my boat and my truck, black powder blanks work well if you chance up on a bear and want to send him away, but carry pre loaded with buck or slug when unsure while walking. Mostly they don't come looking for you, you usually walk up on them they don't prefer your company either. If he follows you, you wont have a lot of warning, figure on muzzle contact with him.

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lol, I"m not kidding when I say I've had that happen twice with both leeches and Planaria. The best Planaria bait is liver so connect the dots on that one. Want to jump out of your boots? Run a stream or swampy bog pond at midnight with a bucket full of liver. :D

However, bear in mind (pun intended), that those who have been attacked and didn't have a gun probably would wish they had a gun........

Words of wisdom right there, Larry

I would go with 12ga pump, I can empty that faster then I can a bolt gun.

Since you are in Canada, headed for the Queens' Reserve, buy what ever slugs Canadian Tire has and carry the 12 gauge. I believe it will be more portable and offer a better second shot then the 300.

My new little 35 whelen Remington 7600 carbine would be a fun option.

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Originally Posted by Tripplebeards

My new little 35 whelen Remington 7600 carbine would be a fun option.

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Like!

250s and it would be good for Polar Bears!

DIXIE slugs and never look back!

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Originally Posted by RPRNY

So the obvious question to ask our resident actuaries is whether they own insurance. I bet they do.

The Mossberg. Your round ball, or Brenekke slugs, for daytime and 00 Buck for camp at night. A far more concerning risk lies with predators of the two legged variety - much less predictable and substantially more vicious than bears.

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I wouldn't let insurance weigh heavily with me. The trouble with life insurance is that they can't send the payout to your forwarding address. jmort's 2 to 5 bear deaths a year (and I suppose the occasional wilderness disappearance with no corpse to be examined) compares well with twenty to thirty from dogs. I say hello to strange dogs every day, and am confident of living out my natural span.

I think any superiority of the shotgun over a .300 rifle is pretty illusory, although as others have said, it is important that a heavy large-game bullet is used.

The National Park Service issues shotguns to their Rangers, and visiting scientists who roam the Netherlands of Alaska.
Luvtn

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Originally Posted by luvtn

The National Park Service issues shotguns to their Rangers, and visiting scientists who roam the Netherlands of Alaska.
Luvtn

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I'll bet the shotguns don't have 26" barrels on them either. On a charge from nowhere un announced you wont have a whole lot of response time shorter and compact would be my choice

Your odds of being killed by insect stings or heart attack are greater than of being killed by a bear. Furthermore beware the American drivers.

Not one of your options BUT a 50 AE saved a friend of mine from a charging Grizzly while hunting in Alaska, easy to carry and maneuver.

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Originally Posted by Grmps

Not one of your options BUT a 50 AE saved a friend of mine from a charging Grizzly while hunting in Alaska, easy to carry and maneuver.

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According to some here, bears pose no threat. Your idiot friend was stupid enough to have a gun with him. What a fool, I hope he regrets being alive. BTW, how many more deaths would there be if no one had a gun or pepper spray? I am not going to be the dummy who goes out unarmed.

My maveric 12ga with heavy slugs would be the choice, lighter, shorter barrel and I possibly could hit a charging bear @ 25-50 yds. If used as a club, not much $ loss. Farther than that and you are hunting.

A co-worker of my Wife's was killed by a bear while hiking in Yosemite or Yellowstone a few years back. He stood and faced the Bear while he sent his wife
back down the trail. Being in a National Park He didn't have the option of carrying any kind of firearm for protection. The Bear"spray" he was carrying didn't help him.

I know a couple of Lodge Brothers that fish in Alaska every spring. They both carry REMINGTON 870 STS 12 gauge Riot guns slung over their backs, loaded with 3" BRENNEKE SLUGS.

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Originally Posted by Walks

A co-worker of my Wife's was killed by a bear while hiking in Yosemite or Yellowstone a few years back. He stood and faced the Bear while he sent his wife
back down the trail. Being in a National Park He didn't have the option of carrying any kind of firearm for protection.

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How many years ago?

Congress approved a new law allowing loaded firearms in national parks starting Feb. 22, 2010. That means people can openly carry legal handguns, rifles, shotguns and other firearms and also may carry concealed guns as allowed by state statute.

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Originally Posted by Grmps

Not one of your options BUT a 50 AE saved a friend of mine from a charging Grizzly while hunting in Alaska, easy to carry and maneuver.

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A friend of mine stopped the charge of a wild boar in Turkey at six feet, with his 9x56 Mannlicher-Schoenauer. It wasn't very big, except that in those circumstances they are all big. My theory is that it was just trying to escape, and if he had been bow-legged he needn't have bothered.

What we are discussing here isn't a charge from a wounded animal. But I am pretty well convinced by the big-game hunters who say a wounded animal will dash in a random direction. It isn't looking for payback at all, but if that happens by chance to be your direction, you take the fall. Still, a bear is probably a whole lot more intelligent and vengeful than lions or tigers. If any animal can form the sudden ambition to do away with you, that would be the one.

A couple of 0.690" RB's will leave a mark for sure (on both ends!). Do you have load data or just using heavy payload birdshot data?

I have one recipe from Shotgun World for double 0.690" RB but I haven't tried it. I looked up some similar payload recipes and it seems sane but...

I have been toying with some double ball loads myself but was thinking more like 0.600" or 0.610". It seems the Tri-Ball is popular but I think there is a place for a double ball load as well. Maybe I'll getuit one day.

Two big(ish) balls at 1200 FPS or so should provide some serious thumping power with not only significant weight but very large frontal area... and hard cast balls should penetrate pretty well.

Longbow