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Hello Everyone,
I just finished paper patching 25 .45-70 405gr. I used tracing paper note book (the lines made it easy to keep straight) and printer paper. It was thicker than the note book paper. When they dry I will load them and shoot them in my Marlin Micro Groove barrel.
For the first trial I am using a light load of smokless. My plan is to use black powder in the future, but don’t want to change too much at one time. So should I expect anything different than from traditional barrels?
Why are you using such thick paper? Have you checked to see if those round will even chamber?
If you just took a GG at .458" or larger and wrapped paper over it then you will create a pleasure spike that has a good potential for disaster. A improper light reduced powder load is just as dangerous as a over load.
A PP bullet in a lever rifle is not the best bullet to use. Use them in single shot rifles with black powder.
I started with tracing paper which I believe is about the thinest paper you can get besides cigarette papers. That’s what most of them are patched with. I tried the other papers because a lot of people say that is what they used.Quote:
Originally Posted by Don McDowell
Can you suggest thinner paper? Can I even shoot paper in a Micro Groove? That why I am posting this thread. To get people’s opinions. I want to shoot black power. That’s the reason I am looking into paper patching to help keep the bore clean.
I’m planning to use 10% over minimum load. I don’t think that is too much of a reduced load. When I was saying a reduced load I ment I wasn’t starting with a max load.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lead pot
Paper patching with black won't keep the bore clean. The powder is behind the bullet and that's where the fouling comes from. About the only way to shoot patched dirty (without fouling control) is to use a dual diameter bullet, that the base is at or just below bore diameter prior to patching, and using either a lube cooky or a lubed wad of some kind under the bullet and lubing the exposed patch with something like jojoba oil.
Seth Cole and other produce 7 and 8 lb tracing paper that is very thin.
As Leadpot pointed out if you're patching a grease groove bullet that is already groove diameter and then putting paper on top of that it's not a particularly good thing to do, and may cause more problems than it solves.
I hear what everyone is saying about diameter and am thinking a lot about it. When they are dry I will measure them and if they are too big I will see if a friend can put them through his sizer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Don McDowell
As far as keeping the bore clean, I thought the second shot would help clean the one before it.
Paper patching in microgroove works just fine... or at least in my limited experience. I paper patched for my 1894 Marlin in .44 mag. Didn't use BP with paper patches though so can't say how that would work but with a grease cookie should be fine.
There are differences between loading for BP and smokeless though. I am no expert on either, just a tinkerer. Don and Lead Pot are very knowledgeable about BP applications so following their advice would be a good thing. They may know more about PP for smokeless than I do too but I'll give it a whirl.
There are two approaches for PP'ing for BP ~ patch to bore or patch to groove.
Most of the top shooters patch to bore as far as I know then the BP ignition bumps the boolit up to groove diameter. Don and Lead Pot can correct me there if I'm wrong.
Some people patch to groove diameter so there is no bump up. I think fouling control is a little more important when patching to bore diameter.
So, the bare boolit in those cases will be a different diameter and in both case smaller than a GG boolit which starts out at or larger than groove diameter which means you need a mould or sizer to produce an appropriate boolit to be patched.
Also, boolits do not tend to bump up the same with smokeless powder as they do BP. Most people paper patching for smokeless start with bore diameter boolits of up to about 0.002" over bore diameter then patch to groove diameter.
There are BP equivalent loads using smokeless powder but I am not sure if they will bump up a boolit like BP does. With faster powders like Unique, maybe.
For my Marlin 1894, I use GG boolits of 0.433"/0.434" diameter to suit its groove diameter of 0.4315" groove diameter. The PP boolits I found that worked best were 0.421" diameter in a 0.425"+ diameter bore then patched to 0.432". There just isn't any room for patching a bore diameter boolit to groove diameter in a microgroove barrel... in my limited expeience anyway.
My .308 and .303's like bore diameter+ boolits patched to groove.
Point being that you can't just wrap paper around a groove diameter GG boolit, load and shoot it. If it will chamber it should be safe to shoot but the boolit should be patched to suit the throat and/or groove diameter.
I never used PP'd boolits in my Marlin 1895 but did shoot lots of BP under the Lyman 457124 385 gr. RN. I used a soft grease for lube and really never had any issues with BP fouling, it tended to stay soft. Now having said that, I am not in the accuracy league that Don and Lead Pot and many others are. I shoot for fun not in competition so am not turning in the sort of accuracy they do. However, I had lots of fun shooting BP in that Marlin and got quite good accuracy.
I hope that helps.
Longbow
I know nothing about smokeless patching. You might go up to the smokeless patching forum below to get some advice.
Patching to bore or groove with black powder works very well but again I will say shot in single shot rifles or in repeaters loaded single shot with out running them through the action. To much of a chance to tear the patch causing a failed chambering and poor accuracy.
Sizing down a already GG bullet that is groove diameter or a thousand or so above groove diameter is like a dog chasing his tail to bite a pesky flea.
If you want to get success shooting PP bullets get a proper mould that will cast a proper bullet for patching.
smokeless doesn't require bore cleaning.
i would suggest eschewing smokeless for real black powder, fire formed or straight expanded brass, and a good bullet-to-patch fit that's either just under or at bore diameter that will push into the case (for a lever gun you will need some small amount of crimp!), and wiping 'tween shots.
My Set Cole rolls of paper measure .0018 thickness. But this is still adding .0072 - .0075 to bullet dia with 2 wraps. My PP mould ( Steve Brooks ) drops at .443 dia and wraps to .450-.451 dia. In you marlin with BP loads a bullet that wraps up to .458-.459 should be good. I say this due to the length limitations of the marlins action. On the buffalo guns the bore riding bullets are only in the case .150-.190 deep and the rest is in the bore. Your marlin wont allow for that for the length reason and feeding thru the magazine.
Ive tried sizing down paper Patched bullets in a lee sizer. it damaged the wraps and paper. If you need to size down do it to the bare bullet then wrap up to needed size. with The Seth Cole paper a .451 sized bullet 2 wraps of paper should end up .4585-.4595 dia. Witht he swelling on firing this should seal the bore very well.
Shoot on a calm day and recover the patches they can tell you alot
a lot will depend on if the paper is damp or wet before wrapping, what type of wetness is used, how much wrapping tension is used, and the grain direction of the paper (90* to the gain will stretch the paper more than with the grain) - any of these can change a final wrapped bullet's diameter. i use fidelity 9# onion dry wrapped with the grain on .443 BACO 1:20 slicks for a final average diameter of .4495".
I use paper patches in both singleshots and lever guns. And I do it completely different in each.
In your lever gun you will want a bullet that is about groove diameter or maybe 0.001" larger AFTER patching. I think you will have to size your bullets after patching them, but that is okay.
Seat your bullets deep in the case just as if they were normal grease groove bullets and crimp with a taper crimp die or with the full length sizing die, with the stem removed and the die backed off a bit. This will take some experimentation.
If you are going to shoot black, you will need a grease cookie behind the bullet
Sticking with thin paper is a good idea, esp for microgroove bores. That said, your first post said your paper was thicker than regular notebook paper. At least that's how I read it. Notebook paper is generally too thick.
Get a copy of Paul Matthews' book, "The Paper Jacket". He does a lot of lever gun shooting with PPBs.
Brent how do you get that bullet through the loading gate with out damage to the patch not alone with it entering the chamber at an angle. This is were my patched bullets fail even with just a little patch past the case mouth.
The only lever action I have any good results with PP is the 99 savage with .358 Winchester rounds.
Kurt
I don't know. I just push them in. I guess I push against the far side of the magazine so they don't scrape on the mouth of the loading port as they go by, but it's not very hard at all. I do it for my .45-70 95 Marlin (Square bolt). I'd do it for my .38-55 too, but i don't have the right size for a bullet. These have to be loaded pretty deep in the case so the OAL will work with the carrier and ejection if unfired.
there is quite a bit of lever gun shooting with PPBs in Paul Matthew's book, "The Paper Jacket." As I recall, some of it was .44 Mag or .45 Colt but it's been a while since I've read that book.
I guess I will get the swage dies out and swage some for the .444 Marlin and give it another try. I don't have a good bullet for the 95 marlin .45-70 that is shaped right to patch for the lever rifle so it functions.
I can make you some of these for a .45
https://www.buffaloarms.com/452-420-...ould-jim452420
I have a .452 Corbin swage die like it with a couple nose punches that will get me there. TNX for jogging my mind :)
Yup, that's exactly where I got the original design for that bullet in the 1st place.
On the lever action thing... I read an article in Petersons Guns magazine regarding paper patching for revolvers and rifles of the same caiiber. Two that were used were .45 Long Colt and .44 Mag. both in revolvers and lever guns.
Since I have a Marlin 1894 I decided I would try it. I made a mould to cast small enough to accept two wraps of paper of about 0.003" thickness for finished diameter of 0.432". Yeah paper was kinda thick but it worked.
The mould was adjustable weight like the old Ideal Cylindrical Moulds and I cast up some 300 gr. TC boolits, wrapped and shot. They did well to 50 yards but were not very good at 100 yards I found out later due to the 1:38" twist. I had to lighten (shorten) the boolit to get it to perform at 100 yards. In any case, they shot well and I had no trouble with patches being damaged due to loading or cycling the action. I had been skeptical but it worked.
In the end I wound up using GG boolits because I really didn't need PP boolits in the .44 Mag. They did work though.
Longbow
Hi Everyone,
I have realized my starting boolit is too large in diameter. I need to put this on hold until I can fit a sizer into my budget or find a mold that is smaller. I guess I’ll just have to use liquid Alox or a mix of it for now.
Thanks for all the great advice and maybe helping me avoid a big promlem.
If I am only going to paper patch, I shouldn’t need grease groves, right? Couild I buy a blank Lee mold and simply bore it out and maybe shape the drill bit when cutting the nose of the boolit?
You could probably have Accurate moulds cut you something, if they don't already have a design to do what you want.
This one cut at 450 diameter and wrapped in 8 lb paper might be just the ticket.
http://accuratemolds.com/bullet_deta...=45-400Q-D.png
If you have a small lathe you can easily make a mould like the old Ideal Cylindrical moulds. I have made several and they work just fine for PP'ing boolits or knurling then tumble lubing.
I've used boring bars on larger diameter moulds and made "D" bits for smaller diameter moulds and for .30 call used an N reamer which was perfect for .308.
I would not try with a shaped drill bit! Drill bits do not cut exactly to size and with anything firearm related accuracy and tolerance to size are of utmost importance. A thou or two off square and you have an angled base. The naked eye won't see it but the gun will know.
What Don said... Accurate do an excellent job and I am sure you can also find moulds designed for PP'ing at outfits that cater to the BP cartridge crowd.
Longbow
Thanks for the lead. They sure have a lot to choose from. I’ll have to hold off for a bit. My budget for reloading this month is all used up. I have one of those things called a wife! Maybe I can slip it in next month.Quote:
Originally Posted by Don McDowell
I didn't look at his prices, but the last mould I got from him was about 85$ delivered.
"accurate molds" are really quite good, i use the aluminum ones, a pair for .45-70 and one for .40-65, they really work great for what they are and they're quite cheap. but a BACO mould, or similar, is what's needed for real long distance.