Printable View
I have the LEE TL308-230-6R mold, and a buddy has a .338 Win Mag rifle, so I've PP'd up some of those boolits to see how they'll do in the .338. Patch is a 1-1/8" wide paralellogram 4-1/2" on the long side, of .004 standard computer paper applied wet leaving a pinhole of the base exposed, and dried. I'll post loading/accuracy data when (if ever??) we get thawed out up here. Mebbeso someone in the Sunny South can get a head start on 'results'??
How close to bore diameter is the unsized bullet? Just wondering about accuracy If you are not at bore diameter and whether or not the patch will shred if bullet is less than bore diameter. Good luck.
Boolit is as-cast, .308/9 in straight WDCOWW alloy. We've had great success with PP-ing LEE 7mms up to size for the .303, so this is to be an outdoor extension of that.
Attachment 211245
Short range, indoor loads, both fired from scoped L/E #5. The one PP 7mm 'out' @ 1 0'clock was called.
The little group on the right was with the LEE 309-113-F plain based unsized, lubed LLA, fired for comparison.
POA was upper left corner of black squares.
First patched batch is truly dry...........and a little small @ .324 which might go well in an 8mm if we had one.
Patches now are 5-5/8" on the long side (one more wrap) and seem more 'appropriate'.
I'm surprised that patching up 7mm for .303 worked!
I made a mould several years ago to make a smoothsided boolit for paper patching for my .303. I based design and diameter off the NRA PP boolit designs.
The mould cast right on target at 0.301" and when patched to groove diameter it shot well from my .308. However, when I used a thicker paper and patched for my .303 accuracy was poor. So I tried knurling up by 0.003" then patching and accuracy was much improved.
The general "rule of thumb" is that the boolit should be land diameter or a thou bigger.
In any case, if it works for you good on you!
I'd have said that the LEE TL308-230-6R would be way undersize for the .338 but maybe not!
Are you doing anything "different" with your paper patching? Is it just wet paper wrapped 2 or 3 wraps around the boolit? Nothing fancy? No black magic?
I have an article by Ross Seyfried on paper patching boolits and even "J" bullets for odd calibers. He used a file to "knurl" copper jacketed bullets so the patch had something to grip. It all worked for him but I don't recall boolit/bullet and bore sizes.
I'll be watching for results here! I may just learn something.
Longbow
Longbow, NO there is no 'magic', just ~4 wet wraps around the as-cast boolit. I just PP it up to fit firmly by hand into a fired case mouth and crimp it there with a LEE FCD. So far, only 'gallery loads' have been tried, with the PP's dropping off ~10 ft. from the muzzle: this time I want to see if we can get 'useful' velocities AND accuracy. I think the thing will be to get enough 'spin' on that long match-type knitting needle to get it to stabilize. I've always been intrigued with using any available bullet in any available (larger-bore) rifle: sometimes it WORKS. Think maybe SHTF scenario.....I want to know NOW what's possible, K? PP-ing the LEE 312-185-R makes it suitable in cast boolit midrange 8x57s..........we've DONE that. And the LEE 358-200-RF in a gallery load in .375 H&H. Think outside the box, add some simulated desperate need, and goferit! I'd be very interested in what successes others may come up with along these lines, so come on in, y'all!
Forgot to mention: the LEE TL429-240-SWC PP'd does just fine in full loads in .45ACP, and the RCBS 257-120-SP PP'd will do OK in a midrange 6.5 Swede. Note that I've added to the previous posts.
Well, you've certainly gone beyond my experience level here if you are getting boolits that much undersize to perform well when paper patched to big bores... like 7mm in .303.
My attempts at using 3 wraps of paper on the 0.301" cast boolit for my .303's failed and decent accuracy was not found until I bumped the boolit diameter up to land diameter. I don't think it was number of wraps that was the issue, more like overall paper thickness. This was with moderate loads, not top end. I didn't try with very light loads.
What you are doing is essentially making a paper sabot with such undersize boolits. If the paper holds up it should work but I'd think the give in the paper might be an issue. So there is a question, do you size after wrapping? I wasn't. That would compress the paper and make it more solid.
It'll be interesting to see your results with a .30 cal. boolit in a .338 for sure.
Longbow
No sir, no sizing, no lubing. Just PP'd to fit FIRMLY in a fired case mouth and crimped in there to hold it. Saboted rounds have been around for a very long time, and today thousands of .45 jacketed bullets are fired from 12 ga. shotguns. This particular boolit has an amazing ballistic coefficient, much higher than what is available with boolits 'normal' for the larger bores, so let's see what can be done?? Maybe my using plain absorbent copy paper and rolling VERY HARD to diameter makes a more homogeneous sabot?
Attachment 211303
Dummy rounds.
Somehow, it just looks 'righter' than the standard boolit on the right or the .300 WinMag on the left.
Kinda looks like one of those sabot rounds for smoothbore tank artillery sticking out of that brass! Long and skinny!
If they shoot well they should have one heckuva ballistic coefficient for long range shooting! I'm in the mountains and bush here so not much need but you flatlanders can see a ways further in your area than we can here. Reach out and touch something!
It'll be a few months maybe before I can convince the .338's owner to 'get out and touch' but we live in hope. Did I mention that the Lyman #31141 cast 50/50 and PP'd makes a very satisfactory deer load for a friend's heirloom '94 .32 Win. Spl. for which factory ammo is now unavailable? Well, it does!
HABCAN, just curious if you have pp'ed .257 diameter bullets to use in military 6.5 rifles? Todd/3leg
I have an old 31141 mould too. Good boolit. That mould casts at 0.310"/0.311" with wheelweights. I wish all Lyman moulds cast that large. I've given up on the new Lymans but I like my old Lyman moulds.
3legged............yes, the RCBS 257-120-SP, and with 18 grs. IMR4227 was a neat 100 yd. load from a military Swede. (My post #7.)
I know a printer paper patch can stay on all the way to the target. I have samples. I have thought about a sabot type patch and even went as far as making a sabot 22LR cartridge projectile for my 25/303. It was a live round so I never fired it. I still have it.
So far, anything I have made has been found ~10 ft. in front of the muzzle. (My post #6.) Might have something to do with the direction of wrap vs. direction of rifling twist?? YMMV.
I tried a smaller cores and believe I wasn't getting a consistent patch departure from the muzzle.
Maybe do a 2x wrap and when dry slice the pp patch 4x around the diameter so it can shed off the core like with petals.
The second 2x wrap should be cut by the rifling.
Maybe patched to the opposite direction of rifling so it unwinds may help some as well.
A cardboard wad under the boolit may help keep it together on the way through the bore.
Iv'e done this with making shot gun wads. rolling a tube of paper and slicing so it would behave like a plastic one.
With the tube uncut it would shoot like a solid slug and blow pellets everywhere when it hit something like a cut shell effect.
I ended up with just a 1x roll of plastic or cardboard for the cushioning effect of the wad column in the end.
So maybe a 1x wrap of thick paper ala chase and a 2x wrap of thin for bonding purposes.
Ha.
[smilie=s:
Two wraps on a LEE 429-215-SWC goes well in a 1911 .45ACP. The search goes on.
That is a handsome looking experimental round, HABCAN. It looks like it wants to work. My thoughts are that it would be good to maximize bearing length with an eye to minimizing unsupported ogive length. The have a tendency to slump if the alloy is borderline hardness for the task. As was mentioned, patching large and sizing to compress the paper to solidity would be helpful. It sounds like you're going from .308/.309 to say .340 finished diameter or so, which is an addition of .032. Four wraps of .004 will give you .032 with nothing to spare at .340 unsized, but five wraps should bring you to .347-.348. Assuming the needed throat diameter is .340, this means each wrap will have to accommodate .0014 (.0007 on each thickness) of crush to make it .340 and produce a no-give jacket properly impressed into the casting. That depth of paper may well accommodate that kind of reduction and the casting will make up the difference. Sounds like trying a few at four wraps and some at five and sized to see how they act would be the way to go.
BTW, thanks for the commentary on patching .257's to 6.5mm. It seems like an obvious one to try, but I don't have any .25 cal molds to play with just now. Been patching .30's to 8mm for a few years, though, and yes, they work great.
Hey, yeahbub, thanks for the input!! You have posted exactly the 'secret method' I have used with some success: patches must be however long they must be to produce however many 'wraps' to actually work. It's all trial and error (my Post #4). Happy to have confirmation that .30's can be 8mms as noted in my Post #6. It'll be literally months before we here get to actually shoot this '.338' lot. Anyone?? Bueller?
Good idea! I'm wanting to patch for my 410.Quote:
Originally Posted by barrabruce
But slicing the inner wraps sounds like a great idea, even just cutting petals into the fore section of the inner wrap might be of benefit. Or even just slicing petals into the finished nose section.
Another thought is to use a tough paper and toughen it further with glue so that it forms a permanent jacket. That will work with slow to moderate loads where the air drag isn't insanely high.
https://s19.postimg.org/skusrosn3/Untitled.jpg
This one was a subsonic normal fit boolit with a soft-ish core. I did not expect the patch to stay on, let alone through the catch medium.
https://s19.postimg.org/kgcfdaxen/DSCF8751.jpg
I have always wanted the made-up rounds to 'feed through the magazine', so, starting with an unsized case, there's never been one that wasn't crimped in the LEE FCD to hold the patched boolit firmly in place. Mebbeso that's a 'secret'???
My seated patched boolits are started by hand then finished in the press. To pull them out a pair of pliers is required and the core gets ruined. I lube the patched boolit immediately prior to seating and the lube soaks away, leaving the patch pretty dry. These feed from the magazine just fine.
303Guy: when and if I lube, I do the same as you, and all else you just posted is my 'normal' too.
BUMP! Anybody??
HABCAN
I think you have some folks sitting and shaking their heads. What you are doing isn’t supposed to work; at least according to the “ standard operating procedures “ of paper patching. I have had some success following the s.o.ps but I’m certainly not able to comment other than to encourage your efforts and let us know of the results. Very interesting post.
wmitty: I was hoping some Member in the Sunny South might pick up on this and move us all a bit forward. It'll be a few months yet before I can get out and shoot: besides being some little handicapped, there's still about 4' of snow drifts in my yard here at present.