The World, Jesus and How We Live

This isn't theology, much less deep theology, but I can think of no other place to put it.

I have been around churches of all stripes for the past 75 years. That means I have also been around clergy for the same period of time. I have observed that many Christians don't seem to relate Christianity to the real world. They seem to retreat into a rabbit hole of saccharine sweet spirituality that seems not related to others not in the same rabbit hole. They seem only to be able to live in this world, by withdrawing from it.

I do understand that Jesus said we are to be "in" this world, but not "of' this world. Not being "of" the world, means we don't derive out values and principals from the world, but from divine source. My issue is that so many Christians are good at not being "of" the world, but seem to be unable to be "in" the world. Thusly they can't relate to folks who come seeking help, respite or solace from the hard knocks of the world.

I have long believed that our faith enables us to be in the world and yet not compromise with the world. If our faith is not strong enough to support us in whatever and wherever life may take us, is it real faith? If our faith is a hot house plant that can only survive in a controlled environment, of what use is it to us or others.

The world is a difficult place, fallen and tainted by sin, but it is where God has placed up. Why do so many folks think they can only survive with their faith intact by hiding from the world?

There are several memorable pictures of Jesus in our heads. There is little Jesus meek and mild in Mary's arms. There is the dying Jesus on the cross. There is also the aggressive Jesus that confronted hypocrisy and evil. There is the Jesus that took a whip and drove the corrupt and crooked from the Temple. Why do I see so many emulating the passive Jesus and so few emulating the aggressive Jesus?

Nicely said. One does not advance Christianity by retreating from life, but by embracing it.

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Why do I see so many emulating the passive Jesus and so few emulating the aggressive Jesus?

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IMHO, because confrontation is taught to be unChristian by so many, everyone wants to teach peace, peace, peace, and there is no peace, as stated by The Father himself, Jer. 6:14, 8:11, and Eze. 13:16. People read it and don't believe it, somehow applying it to "someone else".... Why do so many not believe the bible was written directly to themselves? The whole bible, not a divided bible?

I guess I was lucky, I grew up with a father that did not preach his faith. He lived it.

He was always the first one there when a neighbor was sick at planting or harvesting. Or just had a problem he could not lick alone.

He had one neighbor that nursed a grudge for 4 or 5 years. One day he caught him, sat him down. Ok what is the dang problem? Turns out dad had cleaned out a ditch on his land and as a result he was having drainage problems. Dad spent 6 days there with tractor and scraper working and reworking his ditches. Would not take a dime for it. Felt like he owed it to him.

I guess that is partly why I have a problem with a lot of church's and a lot of so called christians that only believe for an hour or two on sundays. Where are you the rest of the week? Spreading gossip? Stealing? Cheating on your taxes? Cheating on your wife?

We all sin, we all fail, stumble and fall. But we get up and try to do better.

Try to understand, to love, to forgive like Jesus did. When we do we come closer to that goal. More like him.

And I have been working on forgiving too. None of us is perfect. But we need to try harder.

Those that you describe are what I say are 'so heavenly minded they're of no earthly good.' I think the reason we see so many 'whimpy' Christians is most images of Jesus are the meek, passive Jesus certainly not the confrontational Jesus from the gospels or the powerful and victorious Jesus of Revelation.

I have a very strong memory of my first experience with "deep Christianity". After graduating from College, I went directly to Law School. The students in Law School were very aggressive, competitive and in general a tough bunch of young men with very few women.

I took the Texas Bar Exam (1967) passed it and practiced law for some time. I became a convert to Christ and went to Seminary. The culture shock between law school and seminary was brutal. Both were three years post-graduate degrees, but the students were night and day apart. The Seminary students were a very passive bunch, non-aggressive and non-competitive. They were hyper stressed over the academic rigors of Seminary, which as a survivor of Law School, I felt were just an extension of High School. I worked half time, was a leader of Student Government, took a full load of courses and still found plenty of time to hunt, fish, reload, shoot and still make As.

These passive, sweet as sugar, preachers tend to model that brand of Christianity in their churches, which does not appeal to red blooded males. Every wonder why churches seem to be dominated by women? So many of the current church leaders wilt like daisies in the hot sun if questioned, challenged and criticized.

The received Church was given to us by men like Peter, Paul and John who were aggressive, driven and not afraid to spit in the eye of the Jewish leadership or the Roman Empire. I have often wondered where the church would be today, if such men predominated today?

Study the lives of early missionaries like William Cary and Livingston. They were fearless and dared to break new ground at the risk of their own lives.

Today, our churches seem to be passive, lead by woosies, which produce sweet, but ineffectual Christians. As you can tell, I spent many years in the United Methodist Church being a square peg in a round hole and a burr under the saddle of the institutionalizes. I do realize I am a minority voice and a bother to many Christians, but they really do need to grow a pair.

I do need to say that there still are some strong, aggressive church leaders but they are not all that common.

I think it's fair to say that some are called to be evangelists and some to be pastors. There is of course, an overlap. My distinction is the pastor must shepherd his flock and this is a huge area of responsibility in even a medium size church of say 500. Lots of tragedies, funerals, marriages, visitations, church affairs to oversee and organize and generally be the head of the local body of Christ. Effective preaching of the gospel is also expected and often delivered. Whew! The apostles were generally speaking, evangelist. Often on the move, the harvest of their preaching was left in the hands of pastors. They got lots of ears in diverse places and their passionate preaching by the Holy Spirit saved many souls. A shepherd's work may seem lessened by the power of evangelistic preaching but both I believe are vital in service to the cause of Christ.

P.S. Modern churches often seek to divide primary responsibilties, i.e. Senior Pastors, associate pastors, ministers of this and that along with elders and deacons.

Hogtamer;

A Pastor in today's America has multiple functions, jobs and roles. Let me make a short list.

1. To be certain he/she is a counselor and comforter, which require a certain skill set, of which compassion and empathy ranks high.

2. The Pastor is a teacher who instructs the congregation in Biblical faith and how it works out in their individual lives.

3. The Pastor is a preacher, who instructs, comforts, challenges and directs the congregation through sermons.

4. The Pastor is an evangelist, seeking to bring new souls into the faith through conversion. If a church only relies on biological and demographic growth, it will wane and eventually die.

5. The Pastor is also the priest, who makes certain the congregations observers the time and seasons of the faith (Advent, Christmas, Lent, Easter, Pentecost etc.) and the rituals of the church such as marriage, baptism, Holy Communion and Christian burial of the dead.

6. The Pastor is the administrator, who oversees the common life of the congregation and deals with such vital issues as finances. The Pastor oversees and directs the staff in their various functions and ministries.

7. Over arching all of this, the Pastor is the leader. He/she tries to unify the congregation in common goals and directions. This is a very difficult job as there are individuals, groups and staff members that have different goals and notions for where the church should go and what the church should be. This is heart attack city for the stress involved.

8. The Pastor must be a person of deep personal faith and spirituality, given to prayer and discernment of God will for him/her and the congregation.

To be an effective Pastor with all these responsibilities, currents and conflicts among the members and staff requires in a word "BACKBONE", for often they must lead people where they do not want to go. Therefore the Pastor will be the target for people's frustrations and disagreements.

Backbone and resilience is what I find lacking, in so many Pastors and which was the concern of this thread. The results are divided, conflicted churches that are dieing for lack of leadership, because those in leadership (i.e. Pastors) don't have the backbone or mettle for their job/callings.

Now a word about "calling". Some are called and equipped by God, others are called by their mothers and ill equipped for the task. Still more can't hack it in the real world and have retreated into the church as refuge from the unpleasantness of the real world.

The American church has had so many weak Pastors for so long, that alter the churches perception and expectations for the Pastor. So many Pastors have low expectations for themselves as well.

Everyday,for 37 years,I awoke to this load of responsibility. I knew I was answerable to God for that days work. My first thought was to please God each day. If I could please God and the people that was a wonderful day. If I could not please people by pleasing God, that was a burden I was willing to bear. Pleasing people made my life easier in one sense, but displeasing God was a far worse burden than displeasing people.

I believe the Temple cleanser was a very small part of Jesus's actions. Many are active to the point of being pushy when advocating their version of a Savior, I prefer to see someone who worked as a carpenter when manual labor built hard bodies. Who was so striking a personality, he drew crowds by the thousands, yet had to be pointed out to the Romans by one of his peers. Still for me and most of the so called practicing world the Beatitudes is a driving force in our lives.

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Originally Posted by MT Gianni

I believe the Temple cleanser was a very small part of Jesus's actions. Many are active to the point of being pushy when advocating their version of a Savior, I prefer to see someone who worked as a carpenter when manual labor built hard bodies. Who was so striking a personality, he drew crowds by the thousands, yet had to be pointed out to the Romans by one of his peers. Still for me and most of the so called practicing world the Beatitudes is a driving force in our lives.

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Indeed the Temple cleansing was just one small acts in a larger life. Don't forget to include in that life the many times he came in conflict with the Jewish religious establishment. His teachings were in conflict and he openly challenged them on various occasions, including calling them white washed tombs filled with dead men's bones. He became such a danger to the Jewish religious establishment that the traditional animosity between the various groups (Pharisees, Sadducees and the Herodians) was put aside and they made common cause to get Jesus.

The Romans were just bystanders, brought in at the last, to make the killing of Jesus legal under Roman law.

The Beatitudes (blessings) and the Sermon on the Mount certainly represent the core of Jesus's ethical and moral teachings.

Jesus was complex and multifaceted, a mix of compassion and empathy, wisdom and morals, but willing to aggressively challenge the existing religious establishment, which ultimately resulted in his death. Bottom line is what the world needs in the entire Jesus, and not just to go to seed on one aspect of his life and ministry.

As followers of the Christ, we should do out best to "have within us the mind of Christ" in all of it's complexity. We should be compassionate and empathetic, wise and controlled, yet willing to challenge whoever and whatever seeks to destroy his people. With all of this will come conflict and hard knocks that we should not draw away from.

I don't know the answer to this, and its something I struggle with. If I preach too hard, it drives people away. If I participate too much it wreaks havoc with my own walk. What to do?
Well, I wonder if I didn't come closer the other day. My neighbor came over and was all torn up over a breakup he'd just had with his honey. We are talking about one screwed up duck fellers. What am I supposed to tell him? Here he is having spent the first part of life on drugs, and the last part of his life getting over it, and here I am having kept my nose to the grindstone and whistled my way through the proverbial valley of death so far.
Well, I decided to say nothing. I went and got a few beers out of the fridge and just sat in the cool air outside and let the man talk. I said very little and did my best just to listen. I think he left in better spirits than when he arrived, having unloaded a heavy burden.
I don't know. I hope I did right by him.

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Originally Posted by goodsteel

I don't know the answer to this, and its something I struggle with. If I preach too hard, it drives people away. If I participate too much it wreaks havoc with my own walk. What to do?
Well, I wonder if I didn't come closer the other day. My neighbor came over and was all torn up over a breakup he'd just had with his honey. We are talking about one screwed up duck fellers. What am I supposed to tell him? Here he is having spent the first part of life on drugs, and the last part of his life getting over it, and here I am having kept my nose to the grindstone and whistled my way through the proverbial valley of death so far.
Well, I decided to say nothing. I went and got a few beers out of the fridge and just sat in the cool air outside and let the man talk. I said very little and did my best just to listen. I think he left in better spirits than when he arrived, having unloaded a heavy burden.
I don't know. I hope I did right by him.

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You did, being a friend who listens often leads to deeper discussions. Hitting folks in the face with judgment, seldom produces anything positive. Far, far more people have been loved into the Kingdom than preached into the Kingdom.

Your last two sentences sum up my feelings on the matter almost in its entirety!

I have found that is important to leave God room to work, so I don't get to thinking I've done it(insert problem here)!

Char-Gar, your point is very well taken. And I think my greatest frustration for many years was that many preachers I've known and been shepherded by, really didn't know how to say what they meant, and couldn't explain the answers to my questions. They seemed to reach a point of "comfort," and just let the rest go as long as "nobody rocked the boat." I think this has been a problem for us Baptists here for a long time. For many decades here in the "New World," there WAS no "education" to get, and those moved to evangelize had to "work it all out" nearly completely on their own. This, I think, is the root of a lot of theological differences we have among the sects. Some sects have done a better job of "educating" and training their clergy than others, and then, there's always that "human variation" in talents, motivations, aims, etc. that always create differences and different approaches. But as long as a person has their eyes focused on the Lord, and is TRYING to serve Him as best they know how to do that, I'm perfectly OK with them and any differences in theology there may be among us. We're all brothers and sisters, and what set of brothers and sisters don't argue now and then? And which of them doesn't usually learn from that, at least eventually?

We are all flawed creatures, and as a young man, I tended to expect perfection from those around me. What a silly position THAT was!!! Now, all I hope to see, and can't really expect, is for those I deal with to be focused on God, and humble enough to stay out of some of the more major difficulties belief without wisdom can bring about. I've learned to expect perfection from others ONLY after I achieve that myself. And I'm a "work in progress" in that regard, and always shall be, I'm sure.

What most concerns me today is that the "average Christian" seems to be getting more and more reticent to speak of his or her faith. This is NOT what Christ expects of us, clearly. No, we're not to go about acting like people possessed, but why can't and don't and won't we just casually mention the Lord in our casual conversations when we're out and about? It surely brings some surprising responses quite typically, and many of them are favorable. When you "that sweet smile" from someone, you know you've met a like minded person, and if a discussion ensues, who knows who might overhear it and be moved, or just remember it some time later when they're more receptive to the idea?

As you note, more folks are and will always be, loved into the brotherhood than will ever be preached into it. Preaching turns off the very people who most need salvation, but calm, quiet, sincere and light hearted conversation often makes a dent in the perceptions of non-believers if we just approach them with love instead of pounding our Bibles and telling them they're going to hell. Why more of us haven't realized this simple fact, I don't know. Mostly, I think we just don't give it a lot of thought, and just try to mimic what we see others do? Whatever the reason, we need to do a LOT better job than we've been doing for a long time now. The "modern Christian" often thinks their faith is something they put on on Sunday, and take off after church, and live according to their wills the rest of the week. We need a lot better and more effective instruction than we've historically gotten, I believe, but .... with all the easily provoked dissensions that so readily arise ..... I can see why folks just don't put forth a whole lot of effort. But whatever we feel can never change the charge that Christ gave to each of us.

How do we do better? That's up to each and every one of us, but if the leaders of our various sects and their seminaries could just forget about the collection plate and the prurient interests of competing with the other sects, I think that might go a long way towards making our world better, and leading more souls to Christ. That's just my view, of course, and I am FAR from being a really good one to judge these things. But there it is FWIW, if anything?

And ironically, one of the best preachers I've ever heard was NOT well educated, but his heart was as pure as any I've ever seen, and he diligently studied his Bible, and he studied it with an eye toward simply understanding the intent and content within it. He was probably the most humble man I've ever met. But put him in front of a congregation, and he was magnificent! He was inspiring and made things always seem vividly clear! Now THAT is one great preacher, in MY book, at least! Of all the preachers I've seen, passion and absolute sincerity seem to have been the chief characteristics of the best ones I've known. But that's just off the cuff, and I'm sure I could think of other things that marked them as being particularly effective. They sure did know and UNDERSTAND their Bibles! And another ironic thing is one, who worked as an evangelist and preached one of our revivals, was an ex-moonshiner that wore overalls in the pulpit, and had served some time for his "cooking" in the past. This guy was no fraud! He was an amazing speaker. Even the young could understand every word of his sermons, and all seemed to be moved by his unrelenting honesty and passion!

I thank God for good preacher/pastors like you and Jim and others here. You are the backbone of the church in America! Thank you!

Blackwater...Awfully good to see you back at the table!

Preachers make pulpits famous; prophets make prisons famous. May the Lord send us prophets-terrible men, who cry aloud and spare not, who sprinkle nations with unctionized woes-men too hot to hold, too hard to be heard, too merciless to spare. We are tired of men in soft raiment and softer speech who use rivers of words with but a spoonful of unction. These know more about competition than consecration, about promotion than prayer. They substitute propaganda for progagation and care more for their church's happiness than for its holiness!
Oh in comparison with the New Testament Church we are so sub-apostolic, so substandard! Sound doctrine has put most believers sound asleep, for the letter is not enough. It must be kindled! It is the letter plus the Spirit which "giveth life." A sound sermon in faultless English and flawless interpretation can be as tasteless as a mouthful of sand. To rob Rome and cripple Communism we need a fire-baptized Church. A blazing bush drew Moses; a blazing Church will attract the world, so that from its midst they will hear the voice of the living God.
Leonard Ravenhill


John the Baptist was great! Great eagles fly alone; great lions hunt alone; great souls walk alone—alone with God. Such loneliness is hard to endure and impossible to enjoy unless God-accompanied. Truly John made the grade in greatness. He was great in three ways: great in his fidelity to the Father—training long years, preaching short months; great in his submission to the Spirit—he stepped and stopped as ordered; great in his statements of the Son—declaring Jesus, whom he had never seen before, as “the Lamb of God who taketh away the sin of the world.”
John was a “Voice.” Most preachers are only echoes, for if you listened hard, you will be able to tell the latest book they have read and how little of the Book they quote. To reach the masses we need a Voice—a heaven-sent prophet to preach to preachers! It takes broken men to break men. Brethren, we have equipment but not enduement; commotion but not creation; action but not unction; rattle but not revival. We are dogmatic but not dynamic!
Leonard Ravenhill

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonard_Ravenhill
Char-Gar, he moved to your neck of the woods.....did you know of him?
Amen, BTW to all of above

Hogtamer...Texas is a fairly big place and where he lit is a good 650 miles from my part of this great state, so I am not familiar with him.

He does sound like a pretty aggressive, motivated and fearless sort. I always have respect for those kinds of Christians, whether I agree with them on all points or not.

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Originally Posted by Char-Gar

I became a convert to Christ and went to Seminary. The culture shock between law school and seminary was brutal. Both were three years post-graduate degrees, but the students were night and day apart. The Seminary students were a very passive bunch, non-aggressive and non-competitive.

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I'll bet they were. You would know more than I about the motivation of law students and the law profession. There are countless references to the acquisition of money and power, which equals status. Those folks want to appear successful in the eyes of their peers. If it means ruthless backstabbing? Well, you knew what you were getting into.

As they say, it's the 97% that give the other 3% a bad name.

Shiloh

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Originally Posted by Shiloh

I'll bet they were. You would know more than I about the motivation of law students and the law profession. There are countless references to the acquisition of money and power, which equals status. Those folks want to appear successful in the eyes of their peers. If it means ruthless backstabbing? Well, you knew what you were getting into.

As they say, it's the 97% that give the other 3% a bad name.

Shiloh

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It is popular, and ignorant to dis lawyers in general. My mother said, her father, brother and son were lawyers. Nobody got rich and everybody would fight a buzz saw to protect the poor and non-powerful person. The greatest thrill I got was bringing a bank or large corporation to the foot of the cross, because they thought they could screw over some poor guy and get away with it. In my day, there were many fine and honorable people in the practice of law.

As I said, it is popular and ignorant to dis lawyer in general. I never did anything as a lawyer that I regret nor consider dishonorable to my consequence.

I am convinced that "come out of the world, have no part with it" and "unless a man gives up everything he has, picks up his cross daily and follows me, he cannot be my disciple..." and other radical challenges that were given by the Lord, there are very few real Christians in this world. My guess would be that 99% of all those who consider themselves to be Christians or better put "Disciples of Christ" are fooling themselves and will have a rather shocking discovery on judgment day. I have met a few people who sold everything they had and gave it to the poor and followed Jesus... but again not many. not many at all.

1Co 13:3
If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.

Suggest you read the whole of chapter 13. If one is not careful you may believe you can earn your own salvation. We are to live in the world, yet not of the world. ie:We have no choice but to live in this physical realm, but we do have a choice about wether we follow the ruler of this world, Satan, or Christ/God's laws. Well we do as Saul and hide under the pamagranet tree, or as Johnothan and take the fight to the Philistines? Trusting in God to see us through.

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Originally Posted by Traffer

I am convinced that "come out of the world, have no part with it" and "unless a man gives up everything he has, picks up his cross daily and follows me, he cannot be my disciple..." and other radical challenges that were given by the Lord, there are very few real Christians in this world. My guess would be that 99% of all those who consider themselves to be Christians or better put "Disciples of Christ" are fooling themselves and will have a rather shocking discovery on judgment day. I have met a few people who sold everything they had and gave it to the poor and followed Jesus... but again not many. not many at all.

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Universally we (all Christians) are to pick up our cross daily and deny our sinful desires.

Only one person (The Rich Young Ruler) was instructed to sell all he had, give the money to the poor and then literally follow Jesus. The reason for this, presumably, is that he was controlled by his wealth (he passed up a great opportunity). This instruction was not for every follower of Jesus. In fact, there were rich people who faithfully followed Jesus and contributed to his ministry. It is not a sin to be wealthy and there is no command in the New Testament to be poor.

Jesus said the love of money was responsible for all kinds of sins.
1. Money is not evil
2. The love of money is not responsible for all sins...but lots of them

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Originally Posted by Ickisrulz

Universally we (all Christians) are to pick up our cross daily and deny our sinful desires.

Only one person (The Rich Young Ruler) was instructed to sell all he had, give the money to the poor and then literally follow Jesus. The reason for this, presumably, is that he was controlled by his wealth (he passed up a great opportunity). This instruction was not for every follower of Jesus. In fact, there were rich people who faithfully followed Jesus and contributed to his ministry. It is not a sin to be wealthy and there is no command in the New Testament to be poor.

Jesus said the love of money was responsible for all kinds of sins.
1. Money is not evil
2. The love of money is not responsible for all sins...but lots of them

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Well, believe it or not, I stand corrected. Thank you.