I have a very nice .43 Spanish that I shoot paper patched bullets in, I breech seat my bullets, then load the cartridge, have been using IMR 3031 powder, but want to try Trail Boss, anyone have any load data for it?
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I have a very nice .43 Spanish that I shoot paper patched bullets in, I breech seat my bullets, then load the cartridge, have been using IMR 3031 powder, but want to try Trail Boss, anyone have any load data for it?
That advice is NOT for a BP rolling block !
There are published loads for Cowboy Action 45-70 loads. Use them with same boolit weight and dacron to hold the powder in place.
Works just fine.
for modern rollers like those from pedersoli, tb is no problemo.
for the old real deal ones, not for me, but to each their own.
Any safe cartridge rifle that is safe w/black is safe w/TB.
As you wish. 1000s of loads have been fired in old guns with this powder. No reports of explosions.
The Hodgdon charging instructions 1 -2 -3 are for ANY CALIBER and if you don't believe so - Call Hodgdon Technical SupportQuote:
That advice is NOT for a BP rolling block !
Have used TB in 44-40 powder charges in an 1887 JM Marlin Ballard cast iron action with no issuesQuote:
for the old real deal ones, not for me, but to each their own.
There are tested safe loads for any older cartridge (or a close match) published in free Hodgdon loading book.
TrailBoss, while giving low velocities, is actually a high pressure fast burning powder. In his book Shooting British Double Rifles, Graeme Wright speaks of locking up a high quality British double rifle using the prescribed formula for TB.
Went ahead and loaded TB in my .43 roller, worked just great, nice mild kick, and point of aim was the same as the IMR 3130 load that I have been using. As stated before, I breach seat my PP bullet, then the loaded case, works great.
Won't catch me using TB in my rolling blocks any more. I all but wrecked my #4 rifle, 32 long, with one shot using TB. That's after hundreds of rounds of bp ammo and no problem.
If you don't use Hodgden data from the FREE manual ---- bad things can happen (with any powder)
I haven't "explored" very far with Trail Boss. Most of my loads have been in the 90%-of-capacity realm, and I REALLY like these loads in 357 and 44 Magnum revolvers with #358429 and #429421--950 FPS and stellar accuracy. With 95% density in 38/55 and the Lee 250 grain flatnose plain-base, velocity runs 1275-1300 FPS (20" Win M-94) and decent accuracy. I am not a CAS shooter, so the docile ballistics given by 70%-density loads don't interest me much--reliable ignition with uber-light loadings might be the powder's most valuable trait.
Use 3 grains of Trail Boss with a 125 grain bullet in 38 Special, minimum load, very little recoil and my wife shoots this load in a light 5 shot revolver. Use 10 grains in 308 Win with 120 grain cast bullet that is powder coated, my 9 year old grand son shoots this in a small ring Mauser I put together.
I think the issue with trail boss is its "safe" until its compressed. If your loading to max per hodgdons data/instructions if you compress it the pressure will spike quickly. I shot a lot of trsil boss when the powder ran dry a few years ago. None of my loads 30-06,8mm,762x54rc 303britc 7.7 jap performed well near max... I never shot any round that I felt like or did a see any high pressure signs.
The issue is the rise time and pressure peak. It is absolutely not a problem with modern guns. But large cased black powder guns are another matter. You can get enough trail boss in a 43 Spanish case to spike pressure easily double what a black powder service load can generate, even though the muzzle velocity is considerably lower. If you absolutely must shoot a black powder rifle with smokeless powder, stick to 4198 or 3031 and duplicate the muzzle velocity of the original loads. You will be safe there most of the time.
why fool around with a gun design meant for black powder loads and heavy alloy bullets? just shoot the damn black powder and be done with it. you can radically reduce the recoil/load with dry wads - been there, done that, it works to the point of winning matches and the recoil is so slight that my 11yo granddaughter has no problem firing it off all day long . fouling control during shooting is no big chore for greaser or ppb alike - blow tube or wipe or both. after shoot cleanup is also about the same as with smokeless loads. ditto's for bp burnt black brass.
if you *must* go the smokeless way, use aa5744 - it was meant as a large case bp powder simulator, is not case location sensitive, and requires no fillers or wadding.
Duly noted, sir.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nobade
I do a lot more "black powder-to-smokeless" replication with IMR 4198 than with Trail Boss in my Old School calibers. I use Ross Seyfried's "formula" of nominal BP charge weight in grains X 0.4 = duplication of BP ballistics. In 25/20, 32/20, 38/55, 44/40, and 45/70 bullets of standard weight get pretty close to BP velocities. Notably, my 1897-made Win 73 got its best-ever accuracy using SAECO #446 atop 16.0 grains of 4198--shading an inch/5 shots at 50 yards, and 2.25"-2.5" at 100 yards. This borders on an epiphany, given the casual condition of its bore and the age of my eyes using open irons. Needless to say, this load using Bruce B Soft Points will be going along this year to harvest venison. This same load in the Uberti Cattleman x 4-3/4" in 44/40 left a few kernels of unburned powder in the bore and chambers, but so does 14.0 grains of 2400. It shot well, and right to the sights--velocity was just a bit over 1100 FPS in the carbine and 10 FPS either side of 800 FPS in the sideiron. Not quite up to BP speeds, but the deer or the target paper won't know the difference.
Someone above mentioned 'Just use The Holy Black and call it good', or words to that effect. There is a whole lot of sense in that. As the late Frank Barnes wrote many years ago, some of these hyphenated Winchester calibers did not make a very graceful transition from black powder to smokeless analogs. At the times most of these calibers were rolled out, black powder was at its peak of development and refinement. One would think that modern technology could at least meet the standard of 125 years ago, and it probably can--but seldom does. Good black powder is scarce--some lots of Goex are basically Flaming Dirt, the BPCR folks probably could counsel us about what works best and where to get it. All this to say that BP is (for me) too much trouble to locate and manage in this North Korea offsite I live within, so I adapt by using substitutes and accept slightly diminished performance as a cost of doing business in this odious place.
ETA--See also W30WCF's posts concerning use of 100%-density loads of Alliant RL-7 in the old calibers as BP substitute that also gives bullet support against "telescoping" via powder column like BP did back in the day.
Well put. You have done your homework, hopefully others will listen to you and have similarly good results.
Thank you, sir. I have been refilling shells & cartridges for 48 years, and to date have not damaged a firearm and I don't believe I have even strained one very much. I would like that track record to remain uncheckered.
I asked Hodgdon about using Trail Boss in a friends 43 Mauser & received the answer below.
"If your firearm is proofed for modern smokeless powder then you can use Trail Boss."
Sounds like exactly what I have been saying.
I don't know what to think Al. Remember this post from 2015 in which you quoted me:Quote:
Originally Posted by 9.3X62AL
So 9.3x62AL can we make the assumption you won't be fancying the use of Dacron in many of your cast loads any longer? Many advocate it's use, I'm not so sold on it. Sorry you lost a fine 25-35 because of it.
NEVER AGAIN. I broke down 25/35 loads and some 243 Win loads (cast bullets) that were so assembled, and that material won't see light of day on my loading bench--EVER. Its use spoiled a very nice rifle in a rare variant--made during WWII timeframe, flatband......don't get me started. Thanks to Jesse Ocumpah at JES it is still a very nice and quite serviceable hunting and shooting tool, and not to put too fine a point to it.......the 38-55 is about 10 times as useful as the 25-35 and at least 20 times more lead-friendly. For a number of reasons my shooting has dwindled over the past 18 months or so, but one of the toys I do play with and carry afield frequently is this 94 x "37-55" as Buckshot has named it. It is fast-handling and compact bear medicine, and it wouldn't do a meth zombie a lot of good either if his/her course of conduct prompted its deployment.
I'm pretty sure you wouldn't have ringed that chamber without Dacron in the load, so is this one your fault or not?
Here we Go again. The "Holy Black" people are at it again. Danger , Doom and Gloom, sacrilege. Stay away. I have converted my BP cartridges to Trail Boss. If you follow Hodgens advise . They all work Fine.
[emoji1282]️
I'm with the 'Holy Black' crowd on this one......if for no other reason than why have it and shoot it if not for the purpose of being historically correct? Don't get me wrong...I'm not judging. Just my thing that I enjoy....shooting them the way they were built to be shot!