IMR 4895 in 30/30

I'm trying to work up an accurate hunting level load for my win 94 trapper. I tried 3031 with no luck, 4198 was a good but better, but still not the accuracy I need. Looking here I found that several people have reccomended 4895, but I don't have a manual with any loads for it. I loaded some rounds up with 28 grains and got the best groups yet, but hitting about 6" lower than factory loads, which tells me the velocity is a good bit lower. Does anybody have a manual or chronograph data that can tell me a ballpark velocity on this load? The hodgoden website lists a max load of 33.5 grains; but that's with a jacketed bullet, not sure how high I can go with cast.

Also, I've been sizing my boolits to .310. I thought about trying some sized to .311, but my moulds only dropping at .310. Think they might bump up a little in diameter being pushed into the sizer? Mould is a lee 150 grain gas check.

My Marlins and Mossberg 464 love 28 grains IMR 4895 with the Lee boolit at .310. I suspect your Winny will too. Your velocity may not be as low as you think. Jacketed slugs usually require more powder and pressure to accomplish the same velocity, with attendant extra recoil and higher trajectory. This load clocks around 1900 fps in my Marlin 336 Texan, a 150 grain jword requires a full two more grains powder to do the same thing.

If the mold is dropping them .310" they won't even touch a .311" sizer.
Rick

How hard are you casting (BHN) ,little harder =little fatter

a hard boolit, a good lube and a gas check will take you as far as a 30--30 can drive. Your .310 boolits should be just fine. For maximum "oomph," I like WW-748, although I have heard good things about Leverevolution for max loads. It is hard to get enough IMR-4895 into a 30-30 case to bend the gun. H4895 may be another story, but I have never used that. For accuracy, I like 17.5 grains of 2400 and a 311-466.

Not too sure about the hardness, I don't have a way to test. They aren't as hard as I could make them because I want them to expand in game.
I guess I'm just a little stumped as to why I can't find a load I'm happy with. I just want to duplicate the accuracy of factory loads in this gun with a reasonable velocity for hunting. I could be happy with 1900 fps, but everything I've read says it shouldn't be a problem to get factory velocities too.

Get the hardness right (COWW) water quenched. Then accuracy then velocity. I wouln't obsess over expansion with a flat point but the tips can be softened with a torch by immersing the bullets in water up to the desired soft tip. In addition to IMR 3031, I've always liked 4320,4064, and H335 for the 30-30.
best, Thomas.

More info is needed here. What kind of accuracy are you trying to get? What sort of scope or sights are you using? How are you sighting in the rifle, i.e. benchrest, shooting sticks, offhand?

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Originally Posted by FergusonTO35

More info is needed here. What kind of accuracy are you trying to get? What sort of scope or sights are you using? How are you sighting in the rifle, i.e. benchrest, shooting sticks, offhand?

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That said it all -

Good morning, HAPPY PIE!!!!
I kinda figured anything over 1200fp of muzzle energy was enough out of a 30-30, or any 30 cal rifle, with 1500 at the top, when using cast. I load the Lee 170 RNFP. I have used a wide variety of powder, from RedDot, HS-6, RE7, H4895, IMR4895, IMR3031 and several others. The "best" I could get with a early 60's Win94 was 8 shots out of 10(nice groups just large) on a paper dinner plate at 100 yards at the 1900-2000fps. Slowed them down and the groups shrunk. Had the GC milled out of the mold turning it into a plain based boolit, as cast TL with thinned Lee Alox, slowed it down to 1400-1500fps and same rifle 3-4 inch groups. Now the energy drops to less than 1000fp. I have shot a couple of butcher steers and they dropped, well, like a dead steer. A couple of coyotes did the same. Energy isn't any good, if it disperses into trees and dirt, as opposed to flesh and bone.
I use this same system as quoted from
Texas by God "Get the hardness right (COWW) water quenched. Then accuracy then velocity."

It has been, fit, lube, starting load Xpowder, increase until accuracy improves or falls off. Start with another starting load and try again...and so on...and so on....repeat until YOU are happy!! The old Lyman books always had an asterisk ** marking what they found as an accurate load. For me it has always been a good guide.

Accuracy trumps everything for me. What is your best load for that rifle, Bullseye?

I'm shooting off a bag on a bench. I could drag my rest out but I find it aggravating to use with a lever gun. The rifle has a receiver mounted Williams peep sight on it.

Ideally I would like to duplicate a factory 150 grain load with a cast boolit. My gun shoots federal 150 grns at just under 1.5" at 50 yards. The gun is probably more capable but I'm not, at least with iron sights. I know I probably can't get factory velocities, but I would be happy around 2000 fps. My load with 4895 is shooting about a 3" group, the best I could get with 4198 was about 4" at 22 grains. Anything over that and the groups opened up.

I would also add that I'm no expert at this. This is is my first attempt at fairly accurate reloads, mostly I have just been making cheap plinking ammo. It seems like the general consensus is that my bullets are suspect?

What kind of lube are you using on those slugs?

Rcbs rifle bullet lube. I think it's 50/50 Alox and beeswax but I'd have to look to be sure. Not getting any leading though.

Try some ww 748 if you have any,you might like it. I use enough to push a Ranch Dog bullet cast out of Lyman #2 and water dropped, at around 1900-2000 fps. It shoots deadly accurate out of three 30/30"s same load in all, sized to .311, and lubed with LBT Blue soft, kills with authority . This was a Veral Smith suggested powder for 30/30.

I would think the RCBS lube would be sufficient but you may want to try something different on your next batch of boolits. I have had excellent success in .30 WCF with Randy Rat's Tac-X (costs 1/4 as much as commercial lubes) and also painting the shank with a thick coat of LLA as Ranch Dog does. I have read that Winchesters tend to prefer heavier boolits, yours might just strongly prefer the 170 grain.

My thoughts on this subject.
Many know but seldom say. "30-30 is without a doubt one finicky re-loadable cartridge."

Few things I found reloading the 30wcf for my 94.

A. Expecting to shoot G/c cast near or above jacketed speeds regardless of BHN is undoubtedly troublesome for many who try.
B. Cast with a really high BHN although dandy for hole making in paper targets is marginal at best for taking thin skin big game. Such boolits purposely used for hunting are very likely to inhibit the quarry's quick humane demise due to little or no lead expansion irregardless of its point of impact.

1. 30 wcf. Better accuracy had with the use of 170 gr. all the way up to 190 gr. for this old venerable cartridge (due to the barrels twist rate.)
2. After much experimentation with most IMR rifle powders. Accurate Arms 2230 has been my powder of choice for that cartridge for quite some time. Especially so with its capability to nicely group heavier cast boolit weights.
3. If wanting to shoot cast below 165 gr in weight. Think slow burning pistol powders for that effort with speeds hovering close to 1650 at best. Accuracy I observed with such pistol powders? unknown.

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Originally Posted by OverMax

My thoughts on this subject.
Many know but seldom say. "30-30 is without a doubt one finicky re-loadable cartridge."

Few things I found reloading the 30wcf for my 94.

A. Expecting to shoot G/c cast near or above jacketed speeds regardless of BHN is undoubtedly troublesome for many who try.
B. Cast with a really high BHN although dandy for hole making in paper targets is marginal at best for taking thin skin big game. Such boolits purposely used for hunting are very likely to inhibit the quarry's quick humane demise due to little or no lead expansion irregardless of its point of impact.

1. 30 wcf. Better accuracy had with the use of 170 gr. all the way up to 190 gr. for this old venerable cartridge (due to the barrels twist rate.)
2. After much experimentation with most IMR rifle powders. Accurate Arms 2230 has been my powder of choice for that cartridge for quite some time. Especially so with its capability to nicely group heavier cast boolit weights.
3. If wanting to shoot cast below 165 gr in weight. Think slow burning pistol powders for that effort with speeds hovering close to 1650 at best. Accuracy I observed with such pistol powders? unknown.

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This. I decided long ago that in order to keep the alloy soft enough for reliable deer killing, at a speed fast enough to avert leading but still induce expansion, I needed a bullet heavier than 150 grains. I use nothing but 180 RN's or 190 FN's in all my .30 deer rifles- .30-30, .303 Savage, and .30-06. Driven at the same velocity out of all three, 18-1900fps, they work, and are deucedly accurate too. 3031 is where I stand for hunting weight cast bullets in the .30-30 and .303 Savage- never had a need to go elsewhere. The .30-30 will put 10 in an inch at 100, with Fecker target scope mounted on it, 5 into 1½" with receiver sight if I squint and hold just right and the gods are smiling on me.

.30-30 (Winchester M54, candy bar is the rare option offered by Winchester for five minutes in 1933):

http://i481.photobucket.com/albums/r...psy9gf3hpg.jpg

.303 Savage:

http://i481.photobucket.com/albums/r...ing2011005.jpg

Keep tweaking with load and alloy and seating depth and you should get there! 4895 in imr or H is my go to for 30-30, never found one that wouldn't work well with it in some combination! I use a lee 170 mold, with my house alloy they drop after pc and gc at about 181 and work beautifully in 30/30 06 etc!

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Originally Posted by OverMax

My thoughts on this subject.
Many know but seldom say. "30-30 is without a doubt one finicky re-loadable cartridge."

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Maybe this right here is what I'm learning. Lots of people say how great a cast shooter it is but for get to mention the finicky part.

Interesting thoughts here about shooting heavier bullets, and something I hadn't even considered. I may post up on the boolit exchange forum and see if I can get a few of the 170 grains to see if that makes a difference.

Winchester M94, 30-30, Williams peep and a too fat diopter pin on the front sight (which I'm replacing)
Ideal 311413 - Brinell 15.3 - 170.8gr
16.5gr IMR 4759

A box of 20:
* got the 0.481" setting for the 300m pigs - downed 3 in a row
* got the 0.700" setting for the 500m rams - (an approximate 7 inch, 5 shot group on the 500m swinger per my spotter) and then downed 1 ram ... no more rounds

Speed kills, it also kills your boolits.

For me I'd rather have a large soft cast of 50 % COWW and 50% range scrap with 1.5 to 2% tin added, moving at a nice sedate 1600 fps. When you get in trouble IMO is when you try to make cast and soft cast try to do jacketed speeds.

But I don't hunt lately, just not up for it anymore. Not to mention not having any need to kill anything.

But I have 20 rounds loaded in .30-30 with 185 grain boolits that were cast at .312, gas checked, flat pointed with a homemade jig in a drill press with no belt. And I'm willing to bet a pretty good sized chunk that those rounds would drop a deer sure and swift if you put it where it needs to be.

Historically speaking IMR4895 is probably as close as we can get to the original DuPont .30 smokeless powder used in the 30WCF but it may actually be a bit slower. I think there are better powders today but have never felt the 30WCF was finicky. I think some may try to push a boolit as fast as a j-word in this cartridge, I haven't had much luck in that endeavor. Lots of powders seem to work reasonably well and a handful are pretty exceptional. A GC'd .311 boolit is a good start, I like the 311041 clone from NOE. I've had good luck with everything from 2400 to Rx7.

I wouldn't say the .30-30 is finicky either. I own 4 now, and probably somewhere in the neighborhood of a dozen more over the years. I never had a bit of trouble getting one to shoot. I'll go so far to say that I consider the .30-30 to be as nearly a perfect cast bullet cartridge for the dual purpose of target shooting/plinking and for hunting, and very forgiving as to powder types and loads. If someone is having trouble finding a powder to work in an otherwise sound gun, I gotta think there is some extraneous problem in play.

I wouldn't feel handicapped one bit for the shooting I do if my one gun were a .30-30 (but please let it be a good single shot or bolt action for that purpose)!

Great thread, OP! Been on my mind for the past few days, I think I need to dabble a bit with a 30WCF in the near future.
To address your concern I think the only finicky thing about a 94 is shooting technique; more specifically bag placement. It's addressed in other threads (and you may have read them) but I've found the front bag is critical with a 94 carbine, with rifles as well but to a lesser extent. I get the best results with the bag all the way to the receiver end of the fore stock and the wood settled into the bag. Upward pressure on the barrel is something you want to avoid. The fore end band and the magazine band can put enough pressure on the barrel to open groups in a disconcerting way.
Back to the sometimes-maligned 30WCF, 30-30, thutty-thutty...I've been loading rifle ammo for almost 40 years and until about ten years ago loading for this cartridge simply wasn't worth my time. I seldom shot my only 30-30 (a Trapper, oddly enough) and I had plenty of cheap ($7.95/box) ammo on hand. Then one day the cheap ammo ran out and the price tag now read $15.95 and soon $19.95. My next Midway order had dies and J-words. After a few years I discovered boolit casting and a few years after that I started collecting older Winchesters. Nowadays the 30WCF and the 32Spl are two of my favorite cartridges.
OK, I probably have at least a dozen "favorites". But like my friend gnoahhh, I'll always have a thutty-thutty.

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Nowadays the 30WCF and the 32Spl are two of my favorite cartridges.
OK, I probably have at least a dozen "favorites". But like my friend gnoahhh, I'll always have a thutty-thutty.

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That about says it all.

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Originally Posted by gnoahhh

.30-30 (Winchester M54, candy bar is the rare option offered by Winchester for five minutes in 1933):

http://i481.photobucket.com/albums/r...psy9gf3hpg.jpg

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Dang, that 54 is sweet!
I confess I am envious as all get out.

Uncle R.

I currently have three .30 WCF rifles in my stable. Have to confess, that Remlin 336 BL is starting to look really good to me and I don't even like big loop levers. Can't explain why, it just calls to me for some reason!

I just chronographed the 311041 170 grain bullet over 28 grains of surplus 4895 and 34 grains of H 4350 today.

With 4895, 10 shots averaged just under 2,000 fps with an extreme spread of 70 and and Sd of 24 for a 10 shot string. Barrel length was 22 inches. The other components were CCI 200 LR primers, Winchester cases with a light roll crimp. The bore was clean and no debris noted after firing so for a repeating rifle, this is a pretty good load.

That should give you some idea anyway of the velocity for a moderate 4895 load. Newer IMR and Hodgdon 4895 powders may be slight different.

Larry Gibson tells me that the surplus 4895 that we both use acts more like 4064 when subjected to pressure testing so "emptor caveat."

34 grains of Hodgdon's 4350 was right at 1,900 fps with almost the same ES and Sd figures. Some burnt powder debris noted in the barrel after the 10 shot string so for a repeater, one may have to clean more frequently to preclude chambering issues.

If velocity is what you want out of a .30-30, try LeveRevolution powder. I worked up a load using the advice of Larry Gibson and found 34.5g to give 2330 fps with an SD of 10 and a little over 1" gps at 50 meters. The boolit used is a NOE 311-165GC heat treated to Bhn 22 and sized to .310(before heat treating). Primer is Winchester WLR. OAL is 2.400. Boolit weight is 171g.

4350 sounds way too slow for ol' dirty-thirty to me. My .257 Roberts absolutely adores the stuff though. I use 4064 exclusively with j-words in .30 WCF nowadays, best powder I've ever found for that purpose and it's always in stock here. 30 grains under a 150 grain Sierra averages a bit more than an inch at 100 yards out of my Glenfield 30 and drops below an inch more often than it has a right to!

Scharfschuetze thanks for posting that. That's some good usable info right there. Also a big thanks to FergusonTO35 and everybody else that has chimed in on this thread. There's a lot of knowledge here to be absorbed. Which is why I mostly lurk around here reading and searching.

Anyway, as soon as I can get my hands on some 170 grain boolits I'll give them a try and keep working at it.

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4350 sounds way too slow for ol' dirty-thirty to me

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My most accurate 30/30 loads with the 311041 bullet use 4831 powder, which as you know is slightly slower than 4350. Velocity is right at 1,800 fps and they will shoot into 10 shot groups of 3.5 to 4 inches at 200 yards from a 788 Remington. A search for 4831 and the 30/30 should find the thread detailing the details and load development of that particularly experiment.

For me, accuracy trumps velocity and the slow powders seem to do very well in this regard in the rather smallish 30/30 case. Perhaps it's the slow start to pressure build up and overall lower pressure of the slow powders that are kind to the cast bullets for good accuracy.

Swamp Fox,

Thanks for your kind words.

I'll have to remember that. I have a can of H380 that needs a purpose, might merit a try in the .30 WCF.

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Originally Posted by Swamp Fox

Ideally I would like to duplicate a factory 150 grain load with a cast boolit. My gun shoots federal 150 grns at just under 1.5" at 50 yards. The gun is probably more capable but I'm not, at least with iron sights. I know I probably can't get factory velocities, but I would be happy around 2000 fps. My load with 4895 is shooting about a 3" group, the best I could get with 4198 was about 4" at 22 grains. Anything over that and the groups opened up.

I would also add that I'm no expert at this. This is is my first attempt at fairly accurate reloads, mostly I have just been making cheap plinking ammo. It seems like the general consensus is that my bullets are suspect?

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I've had my best accuracy with RL7 at near max levels. I'm shooting out of up to 6 different .30-30s, from a 16" Trapper, to a heavy custom barreled 26" octagon... all Winchester 94s. My notebook show they chronograph @ 2190ave. SD of 12. Best group has been 3/4" @ 200 yards, tang peep & globe front off the bench. This is a 150gr GCFN cast of 6:1 (WW:Lino), in a Saeco #316 mold. Either CCI or Hornday gas checks. Seated to a COAL of 2.52". Same load as listed in Lyman's 49th Handbook. The only difference for me is I'm using WLR primers instead of their listed CCI200 and I'm using a ½ grain less powder. I don't particularly like stick powders in the .30-30... but...

I get good results with 335, 4895 & LeverE for 150- 185 gr in a Marlin 336. Mixed brass, any LR primer and Lee die set.

Hmm, I got some Reloader 7 too. May have to roll some up with it!

http://i824.photobucket.com/albums/z...r/IMAG0023.jpg
http://i824.photobucket.com/albums/z...r/IMAG0024.jpg

I've been partial to the .32 Special for nigh onto 53 years since shooting my first buck with a Win Model 94 at age 12. I presently own four .32 Specials and two 30-30's. The above targets were shot with my 1957 Marlin 336SC in .32 Win Special which has a factory ballard rifled barrel. It wears a Leupold VXI 2x7x33 scope. Target #1 is my Ranch Dog 323-170 cast of WW and a little tin added to help the casting process and weighs 182 grains with lube and GC applied. Target is a group of five shots @ 50 yards due to my poor eyesight. Velocity is 1744fps for ten shots using 16.0 grains of Alliant 2400 and a Fed 215 primer Next target is my 08-170 RCBS mold cast of the exact same alloy and it too weighs 182 grains lubed and gas check attached. The speed of that bullet is 2335 fps launched by 37.5 grains of H-LVR and a CCI 250 primer. The twist rate of most .32 Specials being 1:16 makes for an outstanding cast bullet shooter with no muss or fuss. I have a 1948 vintage Marlin 336SC in 30-30 with ballard rifling with a 1:12 twist and aperture receiver site that shoots my Lyman 31141 bullet just fine but it is more fussy than any .32 Win Special in my collection. My other 30-30 is a 2002 Marlin 336W with microgroove rifling and my cast bullet attempts with it have been fruitless.

As a side note, I own that Win Model 94 in .32 Win Special that I shot my first buck with at age 12. My Uncle Jack sold it to me for $50.00 in 1973 after my return home from military service. I will always treasure that firearm till the day the Lord takes me home.

358 Win