Winchester Model 12, Ithaca 37, or modern production shotgun?

Sorry if this is in the wrong place, but I wanted a knowledgable opinion from shotgun guys.

I'm a complete city boy so I've literally never held or fired a shotgun in 10+ years of shooting AR's, bolt guns, and pistols. I feel like a complete noob, and its 10x more confusing than it ever was picking a first pistol, since there are so many different variants. I want something high quality, reliable, in the 400 price range and I definitely love history, but lack of aftermarket support is weighing heavy too.
I have a few Win Model 12's to choose from at my cabelas, and I love the look and feel, but the forward shuck feels springy like I need to pull forward a bit extra to lock the bolt. Is this normal? Anything to look for in a used model 12?

I hate to ask, but if I had a gunsmith chop it to riot shotgun length, which version is less "rare" so I don't butcher a piece of history?

Whats the best choice for a used shotgun, or any modern shotgun today? Modern production shotguns are in this price range, and while they dont have that "feel" the aftermarket is strong for the mossberg 500 and 870

On a model 12 you want to look at where the top back of bolt locks up into receiver. There is a milled recess inside the receiver, rack the action open and look with a light, if the back of the lock up recess is peened back (not a square sharp edge) find another shotgun. On the older model 12s you could hold the trigger back while racking rounds through the action, firing each time the bolt closed without resetting and pulling the trigger. That damaged the lug recess. If it is peened back the gun will most likely jamb after being shot. Also see if there is any lateral play where the barrel / mag joins the receiver.
IMO, unless the 12 or 37 you are looking at is beat to heck, it would be a shame to butcher it up. If it is beat up its probably has issues that would make it unreliable as a defense weapon.
Parts and conversion accessories are readily available for the 500's and the price of a used 500 is pretty reasonable. It is a solid, reliable weapon. You can by a used slug barrel, extended mag, rail, grips etc. and convert it yourself they way you want it.
I own a couple 12's & a 37. Great bird & rabbit guns. My old Westernfield - Mossberg 500 can still hunt but is set up for holding down the fort.

I've owned all of the above at one time or another and have trimmed the herd done to 870''s. Overall they fit me the best. plenty of after market toys for them. Winchester should be left to the collectors, The Ithaca I had was so light it kicked like a mule and the stock was starting to crack. The 500"s are tough working man guns but they don't handle like the 870's . My personal favorite is the original 870 Wingmaster but I wouldn't modify one of those in pristine condition either. Just look around and you should be able to find an 870 express set up with a riot barrel. Here is one at Bud's for home defense. https://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/...ducts_id/95077

Good Luck

I have and use the 500s in 410 , 20 , and 12 along with a couple slug barrels and assorted other barrels , and in 20+ years have never had a problem with them . As far as the 870s I have never had the pleasure but they have a cult like following and aftermarket every thing , you could do with either . Be careful they bread like rabbits . I'd be hard pressed to chop up or run hard a model 12 . If you mention to a few buddy's you are thinking of a new shotgun you probably will be handed one of each to play with in one weekend . Get a case of clays and tell some friends you will find out .

+2 for an 870...especially for what you want to do. The weak link in the Model 12 is the action bar. What happens to these guns is that they get shot a lot with no lube. On the end of the action bar is a small little oval tab machined on that holds the bolt up into the locking recess. When this area wears then the bolt is not held all the way up in place where it belongs. This is what hammers the recess. Eventually, the action starts to blow itself open when you fire it. The way to tell if this little tab is starting to wear is to rack the slide {with the gun empty of course} use your finger to push up on the carrier while you watch the bolt. If the bolt moves up more than about 1/8 of an inch it will soon need some attention. The fix is a new action bar, which might be hard to find. I have welded up several and that works fine too.
The 37 has a weak link too...the carrier is two rods that get out of adjustment and cause a jam. Simple enough to bend back in until they work, but it seems like they never mess up until you are looking at a big gobbler or bobcat. You wont be long wrapping that thing around a tree.
The 870 has no such shortcomings. It is the gun that put Winchester out of business in 64. Don't get me wrong...as a collector I love the 12 and have more of them than I have 870's...but when it's time to go have some fun, get lots of aftermarket stuff no one really needs, but looks cool and not care about beating the heck out of a gun the 870 is the one that will not wear out or disappoint you.

Another vote for the 870, cause all barrels interchange, and you can have an 18" for home defense, and a longer one with screw in chokes for anything else. Wingmasters are my favorites, but the express models are good as well. I've never owned a model 12, I've never felt that they did anything better than an 870.

For a cheap reliable "riot" gun, the Mossberg 500 is a good choice. I have three of the darn things. Simple guns and parts, if ever needed, are easy to get.

I would not butcher a Model 12. But that is me.

I like Ithaca 37s a lot, but they seem to be awfully pricey lately. Used to be you could find short barreled, parkerized police department cast offs pretty commonly, but not anymore.

For a defense shotgun, Remington 870 or Mossberg 500. You won't find a decent Winchester 12 or Ithaca 37 for what one of those cost new and the after market stuff is so available for them.

I've had Ithaca's and shot Model 12's a little bit. My vote goes for the Remington Model 870.

No need to cut anything for a riot gun, there are oodles of rifle sighted deer slug barrels out there for one. Also whatever unnecessary dress up part that appeals to you, (A basic 870 will outlast you, your kids and possibly their kids).

I like the 870 over any version of the Mossberg, from a maintenance/ takedown standpoint. If all you are going to do is shoot it, the Mossberg will last a long time. I developed my aversion to them when I had to do monthly maintenance on about a dozen of them on my first ship back in the 1980's. They aren't as easy as the Remington to disassemble.

Robert

For the pleasure of shooting I like a Model 12. If I want a kick around hard, hard use mix and match accessories al la ar15 I'll take a 870. The express is not too expensive or pretty so I don't feel bad about mod-ing it. If I had to play bet my life and could only have a shotgun I wouldn't feel bad with a 870. 20" barrel choke tubed, mag extension and collapsing buttstock with pistol grip.

It's just really hard to beat a Rem. 870 for reliability and durability. A few years ago--maybe 10 (time flies!) there were a bunch of police trade-ins on the market, hard to beat for what you want. You might find one at a gun show, or with a little patience you might see them come back on the market again when another large police agency decides that it's time to replace them with something newer. That having been said, here's a little story for you about a possible alternative if your budget is tight:

About 12 years ago some Chinese-made riot guns appeared on the market. They were primarily made by Norinco and Shan Dong Machine Works No. 2. Both were practically identical copies of the Ithaca Mod. 37 as used to be the standard riot gun for LAPD. Both were very similar to each other except for the mfg. markings and the fact that the Norinco model had a perforated sheet steel barrel heat shield a la a WW I trench gun, whereas the Shan Dong had a plain barrel. Both had rifle sights, and were imported by Century International. Being a dealer at the time, I was offered a really good buy and purchased one of each. Out of the box I was favorably impressed by both. They had a nice black finish, black plastic stocks, sling swivels, recoil pads. Both were solid steel, no aluminum. I pumped the Shan Dong's action a few times, thump, thump, thump, tink...I heard this little metallic noise and looked around and found what turned out to be one of the prongs of the lifter/ejector lying on the floor. I immediately picked up the phone and called C.A.I., and about three days later had a replacement part. I noted that the original part was a purple color and the new part was a deep blue and seemed a bit better made. I don't know for certain, but suspect that the replacement part may have been made by Ithaca, but it fit right in without modification. A few days later a friend and I took the two guns up into the hills and fired an entire case of shells through them without incident, and although I seldom fire them anymore they seem virtually indestructible. Since that wave of Mod. 37 copies there has been one of 870 copies, and I've heard nothing really bad about them. Just presenting these as possible alternatives if you're budget-minded. I've also got a Mossberg Mod. 500 with a modified choke bird barrel and a riot gun barrel, an 870 Express and like them as well.

Shan Dong 12 Ga. 3 in. shotgun with sling and extra ammo caddy, stays behind bedroom door:

Attachment 177269Attachment 177270These were taken vertically, but the site has rotated them to horizontal...I have no idea why!

Well another vote for an 870. I would find a used one rather than an express just because they are smoother in operation. Please do not cut down a M12 or 37 ,, or for that matter any nice old shotgun, they don't make them anymore. The 870 and numerous other more modern shotguns have interchangeable barrels that are easily found and inexpensive. Last 870 I bought was a nice 1964 vintage for 125$ and I had an 18 inch choke tube barrel I had picked up for85$ some time earlier.
I have owned M12s,M37s as well as a Rem M17 that it was copied from, M31 Remingtons, Hi Standard Flight king, and 870s in all gages as well as a Win M42. I have shot Mossbergs and Win 1300(think that was the model), and the new Benellie pump. Have no interest in owning a Mossberg or Benellie due to the handling characteristics, just don't point well for me. I sold the M37 20ga I had as it was redundant to the 870, M17, and M31 20s I had, didn't like it as well. I am a wingshooter and clays competitor in that order, so how a gun fits and points is more important then anything else.
Still have most all the others and shoot them regularly. Being totally honest the 870 wingmaster SC is the one I shoot the best in 12 ga or 16. The 28ga M12 is a dream and I shoot it well along with the M31 Remingtons in 20 and 16. I love the M42 but honestly shoot the flightking 410 better on most days.
I assume you are talking 12ga, so just get you a nice 870 and dress it up any way you want. When you want to shoot sporting clays or hunt you can just put it back to the factory configuration and be well set! And by the way, a pump gun is just as fast as an auto in any real world use. I know, I shoot International Skeet with the SkeetC 870, generally around 20-22 of 25 and that's all I do with "target guns" on that game. I still shoot it better than all 3 of the Beretta OUs I've owned, note past tense there. Find you an ol fella that likes and shoots a pumpgun and let him teach you how they really work, forget UTube.

Yes I confess, I love pumpguns,, only owned one auto in my life, for about a year. OUs are good target guns, but I don't care for hunting with one. Sorry for the long post,, but I love pumps :)

If you shoot an 870 ALOT, as skeet or trap shooters do, 10's of thousands of rounds, the cartridge stops wear out. These can be replaced maybe 3-4 times before you run out of places to stake them and you need to replace the receiver. Had the same issue with academy training guns. Ithaca 37 if used with plastic shells and fired very rapidly puts torque on the extracted shell, which flips and the rim of the ejected case may hit the primer of the next round in the magazine tube. Have personally seen a couple such blowups and at the old NY factory they had a closet the size of an outhouse full of them. When I'd see somebody come to class with a 37 standard joke was to ask them, "what choke do you have in the magazine tube?"...

My house gun is a Winchester Model 12 Guard& Riot.

The Ithacas and Winchesters you mention are great guns. If in good shape, would be a shame to modify one. Especially when there are better suited shotguns available.

The Remington 870 was a great gun, as noted, its what put Winchester in trouble. Sadly, Big Green has had lots of issues of late. Lots of gun problems, plus decisions from management I personally cannot abide. Like their deal with Albany to build sniper rifles for the state police for over $5k per rifle. That happened after Sandy Hook and I can't stomach buying anything from the company that sold out to the author of the Safe Act. (rant off)

Go buy a Mossberg 590. They're the mil spec version of the 500. Tough as nails barely begins to describe them.

Ithaca 37's, above sr# 855,000 have interchangeable barrels which can be currently ordered from Ithaca in a variety of configurations, including riot, but they're pricy. The Ithaca 37 is the finest field repeating shotgun made, (in my not so humble opinion) but only makes a fair riot type gun. The older Deer Slayer smoothbore barrels have a straight bore of .700" making them excellent for .69 "buck and ball" loads, but those barrels are quickly drying up on the used market. Around here figure about $350.00 for a good used '37 and another $150.00-$350.00 for a barrel, riot or Deer Slayer and you have the price of a new shotgun the way you want from the factory. I agree with koehlerrk, get a Mossberg 590. The Remington 870 is like an AR15 or a 1911, loads of aftermarket stuff for them, but take care to get a good one...all 870's are not equal, for your purpose I would look for an older 870 police trade in if you go with Remington.

Ithaca 37's and Winchester M-12's are "old school" like Lugers. John Browning designed both, (Pederson co-designed the '37 which began life as the Remington M-17 20ga. until Ithaca bought it in 1937 and made guns in 12-16-20-28ga). The '37 is still made and better than ever with ordinance grade steel barrels, bolts, and receivers, but the design is still almost 100 years old. They served as trench guns from WWII to Vietnam, armed many police departments across the nation, but there are better options now. Get the Mossberg 590 as much as I love my Ithacas, but for a fighting shotgun the Mossberg 590 is the ticket!

Here are some old pumps from 1916, 1938, 1939, 1956 from bottom to top.
win 12, Ithaca 37, Ithaca 37, rem 870 wing master.
20, 26, 26, 30 inch barrels
12, 12, 16, 12 gauges

These have all been hunting and playing for many years.

http://www.duckpondconsulting.com/Pu...a_Win_5397.JPG

I did not cut the barrel.

Lot of good advise you have been given already .but I guess all I can add since I've owned many different shotguns for a lot of applications. Make sure that the one you pick FITS YOU! No matter what brand or model you get if it doesn't fit you and is comfortable to shoot you will learn to dislike it.

Sent from my SCH-I435 using Tapatalk

Having had a couple of 37s and M12s a 1916, 1938 ,1948,1957 and 1965 (yes it is ,and with in a couple of 100 of the very last clean out the bins make guns made) , I wouldn't have cut but 1 of them . The 48 was parkerized and had a tiny ring just past the end of the magazine tube and some goober drilled through for a new bead ....... The M12 has all sorts of adjust in it and too often the headspace is too tight .

The Ithaca 37 is a fine shooter and served combat with the M12 and probably the Mossy and 870 . However I like it's not so distant cousin the BPS much better . After market stuff not so much and they hover closer to $500+ . Same bottom feed/eject nicer lines top safety ,choices of bbls and actions from 2.75-3.5 ,26-32" bbls that I'm sure of and next to no fitting for a bbl swap . Fixed and screw in chokes (which the invector chokes are shared with the Mossberg Accu choke for the 500 series as both short and extended chokes) .

If you want a modular parts on the wall everywhere go with the Mossberg . They don't have the romance or machined steel fit and feel but they are fall in mud shuck it 2x under water dump the bbl proceed with the hunt bullet proof .

Heavy is good with a shotgun using big buckshot and slug loads. The model 12 and ithaca are fine old guns, but heavy they are not.

I'd go for 870. Have a beater one a Police Model I bought when I was 18. Had it for 28 years. No issues

I'm going to ditto pretty much everything said above. My M500 was $210 on sale at Big 5 sporting goods. I changed the barrel/magazine tube out for a 20" one with rifle sights another $116 from Brownell's, and finally added Magpul Furniture for another $100.As far as Riot Guns are concerned the M12's and Ithaca's are kind of too valuable to tweak.

Most cops are using either Mossberg's or Remington's and there is more stuff available to customize them than the other two.

I would look at those options as well as Mossberg Autoloaders if you are looking to use in 3 gun. Pumping the action on a shotgun gets pretty tiring when you do it 30 times in a minute or so.

Here's a pic of my M500 and one of my restored Ithaca M37 which I would never even consider beating up.

My .02

Randy

I've had some Model 12's and 870's over the years . I like a Model 12 better then an 870 . But I like an 11-48/1100/11-87 better then any pump .

The Ithaca 37 is my favorite shotgun, please don't cut one down. Butcher an 870 instead and you will be happy.

Here's another way to look at it, during WWII, (then) Princess Elizabeth II put on coveralls (if only for a photo shoot?) and worked on some airplanes. Winchester M-12's and Ithaca M-37's served well as "trench guns" and riot guns with the military and police, but they're more like princess's than soldiers. They're tough well built blue-bloods that can and have gotten dirty and in the mud under combat, but in the game fields is where they're at their best, prized by their owners and dogs alike.

The Big 5 ad is out today . M500 is $299 with 28" VR, plug , 5+1, and 18.5" security bbl synthetic stock . 20ga same as 12 except 26" . Both 3" chambers .

I have had most of the guns mentioned. At present my house cleaner is a Wingmaster with an 18" Express barrel. Never fails to work. 870!!!