1885 High Wall for cowboy action side matches

Posted a similar thread on the SASS Wire this morning, thought I'd get some advice here as well. I've spent the last couple of days exhausting the archived threads here and there on the subject. After shooting my first cowboy match last weekend (and loved it!), I'm interested in getting a rifle for long range stages and side matches for local shoots. Local here in the eastern U.S. means "long range" is typically 100-150 yards, although our local club has an annual buffalo match target at 450 yards.

Caliber-wise then I'm pretty set on .38-55, I can handle the recoil of larger calibers but I figure why should I if I'm unlikely to see 600-1000 yard events. Although I'm open to .40-65 if the right gun came along and adopted me. :wink:

So I could use help/advice on my gun options. I like the idea of an 1885. I know folks here and elsewhere really like the Browning Miroku BPCR version, but those seem really hard to locate and when they turn up, they might be well north of $2000. So that seems a bit much for one or two stages at most at monthlies. But finding one is the bigger problem.

Uberti's 1885, which comes with either the single set trigger or double set triggers. Cost is about where I'd like to be, $1k-$1200 or so, then another 300-500 on decent sights, those also don't have to be absolute top shelf. I understand the double trigger is not a true double set trigger, would welcome anyone's opinion on that.

I've also seen a couple of original 1885 shooter-quality guns ranging between $1500 and $2k. Original guns are original guns, so that's a plus in my mind. Would that be an option for light use/monthly long-range stages? Money-wise I would then probably have to put cheaper sights on one of these just to get started, and upgrade the sights later.

I'm also curious about the widely-available Win. Miroku 1885 trapper models with the 16" barrel. These can be had for $700-800. Would the accuracy be good enough for 100 yards (I'm guessing it would) but also for that 500 yard target (more questionable). This would truly only be a starter rifle and then I would trade up in a year or two to something better once I know what I'm looking for.

Are there other options out there that I'm not considering? I've never had a single shot rifle, so this is new territory for me. Not looking to break the bank, but not looking to completely cheap out on the purchase either. I'm aware of C. Sharps 1885's, but with good sights etc that would likely put me over $2500, which is probably more than I'm ready to spend right now.

One last question on the Uberti product line, I wasn't aware they had a sporting 1885 model and a deluxe model as well. Hard to figure out what the differences are, if anyone can fill me in on the differences/features, that would be great.

Really appreciate any help you can give me thinking this through. thanks so much!

Rusty

Rusty,
I use Pedersoli Hiwall exactely as you describe for short range side matches, then I have an '86 in 45/70 for the "Pat Garret" matches and 45/90 Sharps for the really long range stuff to 1000yds. (And a few spare toys!)

http://i.imgur.com/6KviTv1.jpg

The pedersolis are no slouch in the accuracy department. They are good rifles and the barrels are getting rave reviews to accuracy by most. From what it sounds your looking to do there are 3 models of pefersolis for you to handle look at. The 1874 sharps, The rolling block ( the one with double set triggers and sights I believe the john Bodine model) and the High wall will all do what you want. If going 38-55 get a 1-14 or better yet 1-12 twist barrel for the heavy bullets 330-365 grn bullets. If going 40-65 1-16 twist is about right for the heavy bullets. Also Look at C Sharps ( 74 sharps, High walls, and Rem Hepburns repoductions) Shiloh Sharps (74 sharps, 75 sharps and 77 sharps models), CPA (stevens 44 1/2). A little more expensive but you can get just what you want as to wood quality, barrel twists, barrel length, contour, Length of pull. I have a C SHarps High Wall in 38-55 with 1-12 twist McGowen barrel 30" long I shoot either a 365 grn or 335 grain lead bullet over Old Ensford 2F BP. The loads produce 1225 FPS velocity and perform out to 500 yds or farther. 500 is the farthest private local range here. One plus to the 38-55 is it saves you some lead and powder per round. Recoil is lighter than the other rounds also. The above makers rifles are available in 38-55, 40-65, 45-70 along with many others. These old rifles are a ball to shoot and work with. Todays shillouette match with the CSharps 38-55 at 500 yds I hit 8 of 10 rams at 500yds. At 300 yds the 8 hits on the swinging pig appeared to be around 4" in dia just under the shoulder hump. Hearing the ring and seeing the swing is rewarding. The bigger calibers more so as theres more ring to hear and swing to see. The one draw back to the 38-55 is under some wind conditions hearing the ring is hard and some edge or light hits are harder to see. Theres nothing like a 45 cal 550 grn bullet smacking the rams solid to make him ring and wiggle.

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I wasn't aware they had a sporting 1885 model and a deluxe model as well. Hard to figure out what the differences are, if anyone can fill me in on the differences/features, that would be great.

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* Quality of wood
* Pistol grip
* Checkering on stock & forearm
* Double set trigger
http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/d...tockFigure.jpg
Accuracy, 38-55:
http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/d...6/IMGP0316.jpg
http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/d...6/IMGP0320.jpg

In terms of the .38-55 not beating up your shoulder you are 110% right in that thinking. I love the two I've got. You can easily shoot a few dozen rounds in a short time and not feel the need for a cold pack or popping a few Advil.... :D

I found an 1885 in .38-55 about a year and a half ago. But this chambering isn't a regular Uberti option. Instead it's a special version sold through Taylor's. So you'll likely need to go that route.

Another thing you might want to consider is that the Miroku versions are 1885s in name only and little else, they are thoroughly modern rifles of a very different and modern design that bear only a passing outward resemblance to "real" Highwalls of the original design and almost nothing internally is even close to the originals. Of course the Pedersolis, CSharps, etc are pretty much true to the originals in both appearance and design function with only a very few minor deviations, unlike the Mirokus which are different in almost every respect except for the name.

For the use you describe, the Taylor's single trigger, either with or without checkering as you please, should be just dandy. The barrel sights should be adequate and are much easier to deal with than tang sights.

I've got the Taylor (Uberti) in .38-55 with the single trigger and Lee Shaver sights...possibly the most accurate rifle I own. Off the bench, I can easily hold close to MOA out to 200M and stay under 2 MOA (10-shot groups) at 300.

Bill

Really appreciate all these responses, I am mulling over a couple of options from folks who have rifles to sell. And they're all good options, too, which is great. But I'm also pricing out the Taylor's single trigger with the Pedersoli sights, I think I can keep that to just around $1500 or thereabouts. Any thoughts on Pedersoli sights versus anything else?

John Boy, I appreciate your posting those photos of the deluxe grade Uberti, that is a nice looking stock.

I'll try to keep folks posted on how it goes. I'm curious with the Uberti's, which length brass do you all use? Starline lists two lengths, one is 2.080" and the other is 2.125" long.

You all have been great for helping me think through this, I really appreciate it. Any other advice you have, I'd love to hear. thanks again.
Rusty

I looked at buying the Pedersoli sights a year or so ago but it seems the reviews of these things are not good, one fellow even said he became so frustrated he took his off at the range and thew them away!

I would look at the Lee Shaver economy soule sights. In the same price range as Pedersoli, but much better quality! $225
http://stores.leeshavergunsmithing.c...e-type-sights/

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Originally Posted by oldred

I looked at buying the Pedersoli sights a year or so ago but it seems the reviews of these things are not good, one fellow even said he became so frustrated he took his off at the range and thew them away!

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Originally Posted by marlinman93

I would look at the Lee Shaver economy soule sights. In the same price range as Pedersoli, but much better quality! $225
http://stores.leeshavergunsmithing.c...e-type-sights/

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this is really helpful, oldred I think I ran across the same review last night. Marlinman, appreciate the link to Lee Shaver's site. Another question: the economy comes with one rear iris, the super grade comes with a Hadley eye cup. I use adjustable irisis on my Anschutz and CZ .22 sporters, so I'm used to having that flexibility. Would you (a) recommend using the Hadley cup and/or (b) getting the super grade, which comes with the eye cup but also has a stronger detent spring that keeps the sight from tipping forward under recoil? is the 38-55 recoil enough to push the economy sight out of place?

and thanks again for the input.

Your choice of 38-55 is a great choice. I have a couple to include a moruko which i have too much money into as it came to me in a trade being bored to 45-120 whick i still have the barrel for in case i feel the need for a very lite 120 to relocate my clavical.

The 38 is very fun tho

I have a couple of Lee Shaver's economy Soule sights, and have no problem with the staff moving under recoil. The Hadley can be added to the economy, if you like them. The super grade is a fantastic sight, and if you might use the sight on more than one gun, Lee sells bases separately, and I'd go with the super grade for sight swapping. I prefer to have a dedicated sight on each gun, and not a fan of swapping.

You really want the tang sight to tip forward under recoil as it helps keep it out of off of your eye forehead under recoil. On the 38-55 its not as big an issue as with bigger guns. Getting bumped by the sight on a 45-90 is no fun LOL. I hadley eyecup can be a big plus as it allows quick easy selection of appeture size for a civen day. They can be added to most tang sights simp;y by knowing length of threads and thread size and thread pitch then finding the correct one. I believe merit is making their adjustable appetures to work on some tang sights now also.

thanks for the input on the recoil and the sight, that makes perfect sense. BigTed, you made me smile with the clavicle relocation line. I'll have to remember that one and use it some day.

Another quick question, looking over options for guns--any thoughts on pistol grips versus straight stocks?

Many of my old guns have original vernier tang sights, and most have a stop built into the sight so they wont go forward. Never had one hit my eye, even with heavy recoil calibers, but it has crossed my mind, knowing the sight wont give any!

Regarding sights, like the old axiom: Buy once, cry once. A lesson I learned the hard way long ago. The economy Shaver is definitely a better choice than the various Italian made sights, the upgrade is even better as are some other excellent ($$$) choices. One other thing to consider with a rifle used for silhouette, make certain the twist rate can stabilize the heavier bullets necessary for the rams. Evidently some shooters feel a 105mm might be a bit light for the "Big Foot Rams". lol
Lyn

I'm getting closer and closer, have some real options each with pros/cons. Any thoughts on the higher end Pedersoli sporting high wall? http://www.davide-pedersoli.com/scheda-prodotto.asp/l_en/idpr_178/rifles-high-wall-pedersoli-high-wall-sporting-30.html

I'm seeing several of these online in the $2k range, but I believe they have the match barrel but also beautiful wood. I'm not much of a wood snob, but when it's there I like it. I'd almost be willing to spend the extra $$ because of the wood. And I can't believe I'm actually considering that. :roll:

LynC2 has me really thinking about the rate of twist in these guns. The Taylors/Cimarron Ubertis are 1:18, the Winchester/Miroku Hunter is 1:14, and the Pedersoli sporting is 1:12. Since I started this conversation thinking that 90% of my shooting (at least initially) would be 100-150 yards, and with the lightest bullets I can get away with, the Ubertis seem most suitable. On the other hand, the 1:12 twist in the Pedersoli will help most with that occasional 500 yd buffalo, plus I am aware of the fact that once I've tried this I'm likely to be hooked and will take up BPCR silhouette shooting as my next hobby. :) But would the 1:12 throw a 230gr boolit well enough at 100 yds? I'm guessing it would.

The Winchester at 1:14 is obviously a nice compromise in the middle. I'm only nervous (and only a bit) about the trigger.

So help me out, what do you all think? again, you've all been really really helpful in getting me to look at the pros and cons of the various options, so thanks again.
Rusty

You can always shoot lighter bullets in faster twist barrels, so a fast twist gives you options of the light or heavy bullets. But a slow twist gives you no option of a heavy bullet, and you'll be limited to the light bullets, and closer distance shooting.

The Pedersoli Hiwall comes in 2 models the "Classic" and "Sporting". There is a big difference in stock dimensions with the Classic model being much higher at the comb and more suitable to precision prone work, than shooting offhand with the Sporting model.

I have developed loads for mine using a 220gn (0.380) , 260gn (0.380) and a Paul Jones 375gn. The 1:12 will shoot them all with good accuracy.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...psfa2fa597.jpg

You know as you price these guns and add sights you could pick up a nice Browning BPCR in 40/65 with a badger barrel and targets sights for the same price. I just got one with Baldwin soule for $1700.

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Originally Posted by Hiwall55

You know as you price these guns and add sights you could pick up a nice Browning BPCR in 40/65 with a badger barrel and targets sights for the same price. I just got one with Baldwin soule for $1700.

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Wow, you got a steal on that one if it is in nice shape. The last one I saw on gunbroker went for over $2100.00 and it wasn't all original. I recently sold mine for $1800.00 without sights to help finance a CPA and since the buyer was going to put a MVA scope on it.

I noticed Gunbroker has a 45-70 listed for $1950.00 in case anyone is interested.

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Originally Posted by marlinman93

You can always shoot lighter bullets in faster twist barrels, so a fast twist gives you options of the light or heavy bullets. But a slow twist gives you no option of a heavy bullet, and you'll be limited to the light bullets, and closer distance shooting.

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Originally Posted by Bad *** Wallace

The Pedersoli Hiwall comes in 2 models the "Classic" and "Sporting". There is a big difference in stock dimensions with the Classic model being much higher at the comb and more suitable to precision prone work, than shooting offhand with the Sporting model.

I have developed loads for mine using a 220gn (0.380) , 260gn (0.380) and a Paul Jones 375gn. The 1:12 will shoot them all with good accuracy.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...psfa2fa597.jpg

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thanks for this info, this certainly helps push the decision toward the faster twist rifles. I've only ever had one rifle I couldn't deal with in terms of the twist rate being wrong, that was a CZ .223 bolt action that is still in the back of the safe where I buried it in frustration some years ago. :( but this helps a lot, thanks.

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Originally Posted by Hiwall55

You know as you price these guns and add sights you could pick up a nice Browning BPCR in 40/65 with a badger barrel and targets sights for the same price. I just got one with Baldwin soule for $1700.

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Originally Posted by LynC2

Wow, you got a steal on that one if it is in nice shape. The last one I saw on gunbroker went for over $2100.00 and it wasn't all original. I recently sold mine for $1800.00 without sights to help finance a CPA and since the buyer was going to put a MVA scope on it.

I noticed Gunbroker has a 45-70 listed for $1950.00 in case anyone is interested.

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have to agree with Lyn here, I haven't seen anything like that price for 40/65, either available or perusing the sold listings on several of the well-known gun sales sites. There is a 40-65 available right now at the Cabelas in Tulalips Washington for $1999. But I'm still thinking that that's too much gun at that price for my immediate needs, which is primarily shooting offhand at fairly largish steel plates at 100 yards. If I fall in love with single shots, falling blocks, and the 1885 in general, then there's always going to be room for more rifles in different calibers and configurations later. :mrgreen:

actually, just checking GB right now, looks like there is a used 45-70 in very nice shape in VA for $1350 in case anyone is interested.

Just a quick update, I pulled the trigger on a nice used Win Miroku traditional hunter from a member here. Good price, proven shooter, this will get me on paper and on the gongs at 100 yds right away. In the end I was really torn about the shooter-grade original at $2k, but realized there were just too many unknowns about the barrel with that gun, plus I'd have had to get the sights right away and figure out bore size, molds, dies, etc. which I don't necessarily have to do with the Miroku. As luck has it, right after committing to the Miroku that original sold on GB, so these things have a wary of working out. :)

Anyway, thanks again to all of you for your advice in helping me think through the decision. I'm sure I'll be back with reloading questions, etc., but for now, thanks again.
RP

Okay, another update for this thread and as I mentioned in the other thread I started last week about Shiloh rifles. I saw a Browning BPCR in 40/65 come up on GB yesterday for $1600 with brass and dies. Checking back on this thread and mindful of Highwall55's and LynC2's advice in this thread, I went ahead and bought it.

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Originally Posted by Hiwall55

You know as you price these guns and add sights you could pick up a nice Browning BPCR in 40/65 with a badger barrel and targets sights for the same price. I just got one with Baldwin soule for $1700.

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Originally Posted by LynC2

Wow, you got a steal on that one if it is in nice shape. The last one I saw on gunbroker went for over $2100.00 and it wasn't all original. I recently sold mine for $1800.00 without sights to help finance a CPA and since the buyer was going to put a MVA scope on it.

I noticed Gunbroker has a 45-70 listed for $1950.00 in case anyone is interested.

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Sadly this will put my Shiloh search off temporarily, but the good thing about the highwall is how well it has worked out for me so far in SASS side matches. The Miroku 38-55 I bought last year has been terrific to use in our local (timed) events, where the speed of the highwall really helps a bit. Until I was sidelined this summer with knee surgery, my long distance events were really helping my scores.

Hopefully the Browning will continue the trend and enable me to expand my range and start thinking about bpcr silhouette shooting. We don't have a whole lot of that locally, but there are matches within a half day's drive in several directions.

Still working on getting the Shiloh Sharps, but thought this Browning rifle was too good to pass up. Will let everyone know how it shoots when it arrives.

Rusty,
You have a bargin there! If you see my previous post I have a Pedersoli Sharps in 40/65 with a 6X Malcolm scope and the darn thing is very accurate.

Rusty, the Uberti '85 HiWall Deluxe comes with DS triggers - checkered and a pistol grip. Uberti will use the same wood for both models. The wood you saw on mine in the post ... Cimarron told me they have never seen a nicer wood on any of their models

The 38-55 is a great cartridge and can be very versatile. If you can find one with a 1-12 twist barrel it will shoot up to 365 grn bullets well out to 500-600 yds. I have a C Sharps high wall in 38-55 with a 1-12 twist McGowen barrel on it and the local rams arnt safe at all at 500 yds. I would look for a rifle with the 1-2 twist rate and load accordingly. A 250-365 grn bullet should perform great depending on the range

If you're playing games that are timed events, an 1885 has fewer steps to run than anything save a Martini, so it has that going for it. While the '74 Sharps ARE cool, they're pretty inefficient ergonomically - especially with the addition of DST's and external adjustment scopes that have to be pulled back in the rings.

As to caliber, one question is whether or not your bullet has to actually knock anything down. The faster twist .38-55's with 300 grainers are supposedly fairly successful at this - the lighter options, not necessarily so much.

Have played with originals - they shoot really well - even when to all appearances they shouldn't

Have just begun to play with a .32-40 Miroku - it shoots really well. . .like, SCARY well, and we're only on about chapter 2 of load development.

The Italian clones . . . have been very impressed with some of their stuff, but have yet to try their High Walls.

Just curious. Why is the .38-55 not good for longer ranges, ie, 700-1000yd? Wind drift? What is muzzle velocity compared to the .45calibers?

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Originally Posted by charlie b

Just curious. Why is the .38-55 not good for longer ranges, ie, 700-1000yd? Wind drift? What is muzzle velocity compared to the .45calibers?

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This brings up a couple decent points worth discussing.

Action strength is the least of your worries with the Browning/Winchester High Wall, but. . .

The .38-55 is typically of a diameter not seen in jacketed flavors. It's a caster's cartridge, and even with the advantages of smokeless and gas checks, the material of choice limits velocity somewhat. The burn characteristics of black was the velocity limiter of old. Those speed limitations apply fairly closely to big and smaller bores alike. Given roughly equal shapes, and roughly equal speeds, big and heavy carries better.

All that said, with the strength of a modern High Wall coupled with gas checks and hard alloys, the old Ballard and Stevens speed limitations for the .38-55 could be chucked handily out the window, and I don't doubt that the grand old tackdriver would be capable of some truly impressive things.

Yep, I knew that given similar velocities sectional density remains king.

I kinda forgot about the lead bullet limitations on velocity. That does kinda restrict things a bit when at the top end.

No, don't want to go the jacketed route. Paper patch maybe? So if I got enough 3F powder in there with a PP bullet would it blow up the action? Yeah, I like to do things the hard way. :)

Actually with these cartridges in Black Powder the Black Powder also is a limiting factor as to velocity. Even a case full of 3 f compressed to seat a bullet is only going to give around 1350-1400fps.

Ok, so that makes more sense.

Thought I'd include a photo of the rifle which showed up last week. Have picked up the Lyman 410663 mold and the SAECO 740, but also bought 50 of each pre-cast from Montana Bullet Works to get me going. Eager to load some up and take it to the range.

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