I'd like to start a conversation on how to shoot High Velocity castboolits in a stock rifle.
I believe there are some who'd like to talk about this.
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I'd like to start a conversation on how to shoot High Velocity castboolits in a stock rifle.
I believe there are some who'd like to talk about this.
Please define "High Velocity" so all are on the same sheet of music.
I also assume you are stating normal 'stock' equipment and expecting jacketed (for caliber) fps plus MOA (100yrd) accuracy?
High as feasibly possible.
Obviously higher than the typical (1600fps to 1900fps) published loads and up to the physical limits. Honestly I'm not smart enough to set the number, which I suspect will vary with caliber and other factors. This is more of a discussion of how to get there, not a actual number or range of numbers.
I'm just a pistol caster myself, but I look forward to learning how for when that time comes to cast for the o'l smoke poles.
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Standard rifles such as your hunting rifle, including varmint rifle, AR's, and milsurp. Some because of extreme fast rifling twists are more difficult to load for and all have an alloy and pressure limitation.
Myself I'm looking definitely above 2000 fps. Those that load in the 1600 to 1800 fps bracket can get more velocity. Besides the alloy/presure limitations, some calibers have a velocity limitation that their cartridges aren't able to achieve even with j-words. That's not to say that can get higher velocity with lighter bullets then loaded by the factory standard. I'm sure many of you know that as the calibers out there that you can use pistol/revolver bullets or bullet weights in. An example would be shooting 38/357mag bullets in a 35 Rem.
Being semi new to rifle casting except a little for black powder, I'm going to just sit by the side and watch this thread.
Well I don't know if this counts but here goes .
7x6.8 mildcat
Carcano action
Montana Rifleman bbl 21" 1-8 twist
As with all things some things worked better than others. I did get to 2375 fps with a 142 gr 27-135 papered up to .285 with quarter dia groups . 10x ,H322 and 4198 all deliver useful groups and 2300-2350 . Only really significant as this is jacketed speeds for 130s.I really don't feel like I did any especially particular with this other than attention the as cast bullets .
Next up a 6.8 SPCII AR .
Same powders . With assorted jacketed factory loads the rifle delivered 2-2.5 inch best groups at 24-2600 fp with 115-120 gr loads with 120SST I readily got 2" groups without a lengthy work up with multiple powders .
For cast I used the NOE 279-124 FP weighing in at 129 gr from 75/25 WW - 1-20 and water dropped . These are also the 1st loads I had assembled with gas checks . The bullets were culled 1st by obvious defect then by full fill out . Using 4198 allowed me to reach 2150 with nominal accuracy for the rifle . Several issues have made themselves known the chamber neck is a minimum length so the nominal case lengths were in fact too long and caused release issues in the top loads . This also lead to some fouling caused by lube failure caused by undersizing at the case mouth . Because of the muzzle device being shouldered away from the muzzle I had crown fouling that also messed with the groups . I now have a clean muzzle, recut muzzle device and a 280 sizer for the gas checks over the original 278 which worked with the 270 x 277 bbl except for the case mouth abuse. It should be noted that the 6.8 Remington is rated for 62 kpsi and 2300 fps with jacketed 130 gr projectiles so even if I am unsuccessful in breaching 2300 fps ,I need 2200, I will be well into jacket speeds.
Attention to fill out and seating plus custom expanders and partial sizing of the cases contribute to accuracy. The SPCII chamber, or at least mine , is full in the shoulder resulting in a slight increase in capacity . I believe that with the uniform trimmed length will help with the lube loss and the sizeless checking won't hurt anything.
I guess just about any fool can run 222 and 223 well over 2500 with 50-70 gr bullets so I don't have anything to add to that .
I do intend to try a 6.5 mag and 257 Roberts looking for 3100 and 2700 in each with the same bullet a NOE 260-120 fp . Of course 2500 in either or both would be sufficient.
My successes in 30 cal have been limited. Getting the accuracy and and velocity curves to match up just hasn't happened yet. I can drive hard in lead free bbls or have little groups fast twist or slow there's just no bliss. It is possible that I've not given sufficient attention to the details .
Fastest I have personally shot was a Ruger #1 in .375 H&H with a 300 gr. GC mold made by BRP. I would have to look up the alloy, but given the time frame, most likely heat treated WW at best. The gun wears a 2.5X Leupold HEAVY Duplex scope. Several groups in a row were in the 5/8" wide by 2.5" high range. Obvious vertical stringing in every group. Me? The often reported #1 stringing? The load? I dunno. Velocity was in the 2,650 fps range.
Breech seating tools, bump dies, optical comparators? Any tooling restrictions?
Breech seating? No.
Bump dies, why not?
I can give it a go with Dad's post 64 Mod 70 in 30-06.
I may see what I can get from the 375 H&H too. I have had it over 1800 with accuracy easily. Never gone faster with good results but have learned much since then.
My interest is a "shoot whatcha got" discussion. Dies and moulds are easily purchased or modified by most. Alloy, lube, and powder are the big topics I'm interested in.
If your shoulder can bear some more testing set up a chronograph and look at your ES and SD. You may be having a lot of velocity variation. If you do your powder isn't burning just right yet. Could also be caused by inconsistent crimp if you're using one and also varying neck tension.
Sounds like a good candidate for 50/50 alloy water quenched.
I agree with Btoj, lets keep it simple. Breech seating is a whole other ball game. It's specialized. Franklore is pretty good at it.
If allowed here or if affordable to whomever is doing the testing first thing would be a truly custom made mold for your rifle with as perfect bullet fit as possible since fit is king. Then on to bump dies etc. if necessary. Alloy isn't quite as important I don't think as long as fit is right. Powder choices I would say should be on the slower side that let you reach your velocity. Using "factory" molds things become a bit more difficult but not impossible. There are classes for both factory and milsurp rifles in competition and some of those guys are doing pretty respectable work.
To be honest, I'm not sure. Maybe some theory of boolit deformation ...When, where and how much is too much.
This is a discussion, not a competition. These are all interesting tools to discuss, as in, why are they used, what benefit do they offer. Also what can be done without these tools, that can nearly mimic their advantages.
breech seating tool..... I had to look that one up.
I'm going to throw out a statement for debate, just to see where everyone is in the HV game.
"Nose-bumping a bullet for HV shooting is a complete and utter waste of time".
Agree? Disagree? Why? (There's no substitute for experience here, so no WAGs please).
Gear
I should stay out of this but I'd agree gear if you're bumping just the nose to make it bore ride. But you can "bump" the whole bullet to make a difference. I suppose here it's what is bumping and what is swaging. We weren't swaging "blank" cores etc. but we did change shape a fair amount as they came from a mold as well as increasing diameter a bit. This required a custom die and the truth is it would be as easy to make a mold but it was interesting to try. And understand this was quite awhile ago and I don't do much of this kind of thing anymore but it's interesting to read here about others experiments....well....until things go awry......smiles.
I suppose we should define "nose bumping". If you mean having the nose of the bullet "slug up" a bit on firing in order to fill the bore and engrave then I am all for it.
My feeling is that unless you shoot really hard alloys at really low pressure then the bullet IS going to be altered in shape by pressure. Hard alloy at low pressure isn't gonna give HV so it isn't relevant here.
I think the MP 30 sil is going to be my go to bullet for this. It is a design that will do what I think needs doing. Pain in the keister to cast at times but it shoots well enou to make it worth the hassle.
Shooter 93, I am here with you hoping that this doesn't go awry.
I pledge to to do my part to ensure it does not. I know for sure that gear, Run, and I can agree to disagree when/if the time comes. I have a feeling that JonB and Run will keep this on a tight leash too
I'm interested in this also or just getting closer. So Lets recap what we know so far:
Must have correct boolit for rifle, "fit is King", how do we define this? I also have a post M70 believe to be made in the 70's. I just received some chamber casting alloy from Roto metals to attempt and find all dimensions possible to answer this question.
Must have correct alloy. Can we say Lyman#2
Must have correct lube. So much has been said and accomplished, as much as I liked making my own can we agree on 2500+ or another proven.
First chronograph will be coming so I'm all on board. Looking for every detail.
Nose bumping means a light swage in a die to change the shape to better fit the rifle's throat. Very common practice among some benchrest disciplines.
I suppose this could be an excuse for a challenge to make me get off my behind and actually put that pointy Accurate bullet of mine through it's paces in a bolt rifle and see where it poops out.
Gear
IMHO 2500+ lube is a good 'standard'. PP, bump die, breach seating are not 'the usual' for casters so discussions may be less useful to the guy who just wants HV from his off the shelf rifle. Most of us don't have lathe, special tools or $ to spend on that stuff. Opinions?
Agree entirely popper.
Im interested in seeing what I can get with normal, everyday casting and loading tools.
I feel anything you do to alter a bullet has a negative effect. Let me explain please. We are talking HV here. Little errors become major ones in the HV game. I don't think a nose can be bumped perfect. I'd much rather see a correct mould used for the situation.
I also think putting a lot of effort into changing gas checks (perfecting them) is a waste of time. Gas check get really distorted from the firing process. When they are squeezed down into the bore they rarely stay flat. Often when you recover bullets you see cupped gas checks or even more then cupped where there is a rather large dimple in the center. I'm talking concave not convex. I'll leave this post with a question. What do you all think caused that dimple?
:popcorn:Watching with interest....
Interesting thread. I've got a 270 Steyr Mannlicher that I would like to push the envelope with a bit.
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http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_...=31-165A-D.png
i put this in my 308 cases on top of 45.6 grs of 4831-sc for @2400 fps.
ww alloy water cut with soft lead 3-1.
0.5% tin added, dropped in a pail of water and sized to 310.
lubed with my moly complex lube.
simple as i can make it for ya.
If it were me, I would create a sub-forum for HV, where within it we could have all the various testing held:
1: straight off the shelf testing of: hunting rifles, milsurps, etc.
2: Modified class with nose bumping, etc
3: Super-modified with Breech seating tools, bump dies, optical comparators, etc
This way all of us can gain knowledge from each other on what works for each particular field of interest that we're in or have an inkling for. Me? The most I can see myself playing with is some WWII era milsurps, as is, squeezing whatever velocity that I can from them. I have no interest in tooling up, swapping barrels, etc, but.... that may change in some future point of my life. I'd still like to see the results from such testing and learning from it.
It doesn't have to be a competition, but friendly competitions often push us to strive harder to reach or even exceed our goals, caveat here would be that ego's would have to be checked at the door and no cheating. LOL, i've read this site about the time Odrama came into office and the one constant that i've seen is there's no egos....... ;)
Anyway, that's my basic look at it.
I respect your 'want' of some organization, but there is just not enough traffic to warrant sub-forums.
I am hoping for the general discussion of it here in this thread, and if there were a couple members or several who decide to take on some experimentation, I'd recommend starting a new thread, much like I did a year ago (see link below). While I did start that in my first SL68 lube thread (pre-SL68B), I decided to move that pursuit to it's own thread when I had some poor results and wanted more input, but I ended up getting discouraged and set aside the HV pursuit.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...t-1&highlight=
Or if you prefer to NOT start a new thread, feel free to post results in this thread, that is fine, I don't want to "herd" this conversation too much.
Pretty sure they have already mentioned 2000+ fps/ 1 MOA
The standard to me is dependant upon the rifle. If the rifle shoots 1.5 inches at 100 with jacketed then I would be very happy with that or even 2 inches with cast over 2K fps.
Push your cast loads and see how long you can keep reasonable, your definition, accuracy. Can you increase speed 300 fps and keep groups the same or maybe 50% larger?
This is somewhat less about the end result and more about the journey. The how is more important than the what.
btroj's above statement makes a good point and starting point for me as a casual shooter wanting more, Thank you! I guess with that being said I can confirm with jacketed what my "baseline" is and proceed from there.
Something not mentioned previously, what about rifle 'quality'? Not bashing manufacturers, just how concentric/consistent is bore, chamber, etc. How to measure, what is 'good' and 'bad'? Not talking 'fixes' here, just ' this is what I got, could it work'? Or, how good does a rifle need to be to get HV?
Here's a link that is a half decent rad to answer some of your questions.
http://www.sinclairintl.com/.aspx/li...-_-Custom+Link