Trail Boss in .44 Special Revolvers

Just thought I'd post some chronographed resulted of Traill Boss and traditional powders in .44 Spcl. Date: June 29, 2007 Temp: 80F

Gun:S & W M21/4" bbl/All are for 12 shots

Bullet: Lee 429-200-RF/208 gr as cast from AC WW.

Powder/charge: 2400/14.3 gr
High/Low/Avg: 1078/999/1035
ES: 79.97
SD: 26.07

Powder/charge: Unique/8.2 pr
High/Low/Avg: 1106/1024/1064
ES: 82.27
SD: 28.01

Powder/charge: Trail Boss/5.3 gr
High/Low/Avg: 784.8/826.5/803.2
ES: 41.7
SD: 14.62

Bullet:Lyman 429667/ 246 gr as cast from AC WW

Powder/charge: Trail Boss/5.3 gr
High/Low/Avg: 733.7/703/717
ES: 30.64
SD: 10.63

Gun: S & W 296/2" bbl/All are for 10 shots

Bullet: Lee 429-200-RF/208 gr as cast from AC WW.

Powder/charge: 2400/14.3 gr
High/Low/Avg: 936.9/767.8/894.6
ES: 169.1
SD:48.3

Powder/charge: Unique/8.2 gr
High/Low/Avg:986.9/940.1
ES: 46.84
SD: 14.79

Powder/charge: Trail Boss/5.3 gr
High/Low/Avg: 774.2/757.5/740.2
ES: 34.24
SD: 11.48

I also checked some carry ammo - 200 WW jacketed hollow points. What junk!
Powder/charge: Unknown
High/Low/Avg: 749.9/463.5/545
ES: 286.4
SD: 108.1

Conclusions:

For moderate velocity loads Trail Boss has a lower SD than the other two, but Unique is very close. Both work well in short and medium length barrels, so what velocity level do you want? 2400 shows a real drop in shorter barrels and takes more powder for the same velocity as Unique.

And the lot of WW HPs I wanted to use for carry purposes performed dismally. I bought a box of CorBons on the way home from the range. Glad I checked them before I depended on them!

How does this line up with the group's experience? Comments?

Yep, what I've seen with Trailboss would agree. I have no chrony data to campare but in low-medium charge loads in all the very high expansion ratio cartridges like: 45 ACP, 44-40, 38-40 and 38 SPL... Trailboss loads have equaled and most times exceeded accuracy of other powder loads including the powders you listed.

I need a drink. After burning up a pound of Trail Boss, a pound of Unique, most of a pound of Bullseye, half a pound of Universal and a pound of 2400 in a quest to get a 250gr 429421 to shoot in a 2 1/2" barrel, 13.5gr of 2400 out shoots them all. And it isn't even close. If I can ever get a Lee 429-200-RF (damned backorders) I get to start all over again.

Thank you for this. It looks like Trail Boss is a good place to start.

No chrony data, however my 4" S&W 624 / .44SPL performs very well w/ the following combinations:

Bull Shop / LBT 260WFN-PB (10 BHN)
Power Pistol 7.5 grains
WLP

Bull Shop / LBT 260WFN-PB (10 BHN)
Trail Boss 4.8 grains
Fed LP

Montana Bullet Works / LBT 240WFN-PB (15 BHN)
VV N-340 7.3 grains
WLP

Montana Bullet Works / LBT 240WFN-PB (15 BHN)
Trail Boss 4.8 grains
Fed LP

Montana Bullet Works / LBT 220WC-PB (15 BHN)
Trail Boss 5.5 grains
Fed LP

Had a tough time initially w/ the 220WC-PB, until I tried the Trail Boss. They shoot like a house on fire, w/ this powder!

The Power Pistol seems to work best w/ heavier bullets - in a big bore application, at least. Gets along real well, w/ the soft 260WFN-PB from Dan. Also worked very well in a 4" S&W 657 / .41 Mag, w/ Cast Perf 250WFN-GC bullets.

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Originally Posted by theperfessor

Just thought I'd post some chronographed resulted of Traill Boss and traditional powders in .44 Spcl. Date: June 29, 2007 Temp: 80F

Gun:S & W M21/4" bbl/All are for 12 shots

Bullet: Lee 429-200-RF/208 gr as cast from AC WW.

Powder/charge: 2400/14.3 gr
High/Low/Avg: 1078/999/1035
ES: 79.97
SD: 26.07

Powder/charge: Unique/8.2 pr
High/Low/Avg: 1106/1024/1064
ES: 82.27
SD: 28.01

Powder/charge: Trail Boss/5.3 gr
High/Low/Avg: 784.8/826.5/803.2
ES: 41.7
SD: 14.62

Bullet:Lyman 429667/ 246 gr as cast from AC WW

Powder/charge: Trail Boss/5.3 gr
High/Low/Avg: 733.7/703/717
ES: 30.64
SD: 10.63

Gun: S & W 296/2" bbl/All are for 10 shots

Bullet: Lee 429-200-RF/208 gr as cast from AC WW.

Powder/charge: 2400/14.3 gr
High/Low/Avg: 936.9/767.8/894.6
ES: 169.1
SD:48.3

Powder/charge: Unique/8.2 gr
High/Low/Avg:986.9/940.1
ES: 46.84
SD: 14.79

Powder/charge: Trail Boss/5.3 gr
High/Low/Avg: 774.2/757.5/740.2
ES: 34.24
SD: 11.48

I also checked some carry ammo - 200 WW jacketed hollow points. What junk!
Powder/charge: Unknown
High/Low/Avg: 749.9/463.5/545
ES: 286.4
SD: 108.1

Conclusions:

For moderate velocity loads Trail Boss has a lower SD than the other two, but Unique is very close. Both work well in short and medium length barrels, so what velocity level do you want? 2400 shows a real drop in shorter barrels and takes more powder for the same velocity as Unique.

And the lot of WW HPs I wanted to use for carry purposes performed dismally. I bought a box of CorBons on the way home from the range. Glad I checked them before I depended on them!

How does this line up with the group's experience? Comments?

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OK. I finally picked up a Lee 429-200-RF. I tried all of the loads that you listed, and a few more, using water dropped WW with a good dose of tin sized to .430. Basically, I got a 6 to 8 inch pattern and a leaded barrel. So...........back to the lead pot. I cast a mess of them using the same alloy but air cooled and loaded as cast. All the same loads equaled perhaps a 5 to 7 inch pattern and no leading.

I guess I should be happy with the 250gr Keith load. It's a wrist cracker but, at 50ft or so it will produce one ragged hole. Not much fun slamming a 250gr slug at near 1000fps out of a 20oz revolver.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ghugly

OK. I finally picked up a Lee 429-200-RF. I tried all of the loads that you listed, and a few more, using water dropped WW with a good dose of tin sized to .430. Basically, I got a 6 to 8 inch pattern and a leaded barrel. So...........back to the lead pot. I cast a mess of them using the same alloy but air cooled and loaded as cast. All the same loads equaled perhaps a 5 to 7 inch pattern and no leading.

I guess I should be happy with the 250gr Keith load. It's a wrist cracker but, at 50ft or so it will produce one ragged hole. Not much fun slamming a 250gr slug at near 1000fps out of a 20oz revolver.

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Out of curiousity, what revolver are you using, & what size are the cylinder throats?

In my original test I did not shoot for accuracy, I was (a) testing my chrony, and (b) trying to come up with some loads at various velocity ranges. I have since shot the Trail Boss loads for accuracy in three guns - a S&W M21, a S&W M296, and a Rossi M720.

The Lee 429-200-RF bullets were sized in a .431 die which didn't completely size bullet-they are out of round by about .001 when dropped from mold.

Accuracy from M21 in SA mode (throats measure .430-.431) at 20 yds off bench is about 2-2.5 inches. With M296 (DA only), throats measure same, accuracy about 3-3.5 inches. Rossi has throats that measure .432 to .435, accuracy nonexistent (5+ inches single action).

Thinking of taking Rossi and honing out throats to be consistent .434-.435 and trying larger bullet diameter or making a nose pour mold w/hollow base to see if it helps.

Throat size/bullet diameter does make a difference!

My Ruger SBH has large throats (.434) and I get very good results by "Beagleing" my moulds and sizing to .433 on both the Lyman 429421 and the Lee 214 swc. My best mild loads are 7.0/231 or 7.0/green dot which run around 900fps (7.5" bbl) and accuracy is less than 2" @ 25 yds.

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Originally Posted by gcf

Out of curiousity, what revolver are you using, & what size are the cylinder throats?

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I'm loading for a pair of Charter2000 Bulldogs. The throats run .434 the bores are .430. The problem is that the guns have forcing cones that are smaller than the throats. A 429421 that has a proper, full diameter front driving band, sized to .430 will slam into the forcing cone, shave lead, and shoot about as bad as you'd think it would.

If you swing out the cylinder and try to start the boolit into the forcing cone, the front driving band won't even come close to entering. It's almost as bad as trying to push the boolit into the other end of the barrel.

Sizing the boolits to throat diameter seems like a dandy idea, if you have a forcing cone.

So far, the best I've been able to do is find some 429421 moulds that cast a boolit with a small front driving band. These will fit the front band into the forcing cone and through some sort of miracle that I haven't figured out yet, cause the rest of the boolit to follow without shaving lead. The darned things actually work. They just have to be driven so damned hard to stabilize that the guns aren't much fun to shoot. I would just like to find a light boolit that would work as well.

Why don't you have a gunsmith open up your forcing cone? Brownells or Midway may even have a do-it-yourself tool.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ghugly

I'm loading for a pair of Charter2000 Bulldogs. The throats run .434 the bores are .430. The problem is that the guns have forcing cones that are smaller than the throats. A 429421 that has a proper, full diameter front driving band, sized to .430 will slam into the forcing cone, shave lead, and shoot about as bad as you'd think it would. ...


...So far, the best I've been able to do is find some 429421 moulds that cast a boolit with a small front driving band. These will fit the front band into the forcing cone and through some sort of miracle that I haven't figured out yet, cause the rest of the boolit to follow without shaving lead. The darned things actually work. They just have to be driven so damned hard to stabilize that the guns aren't much fun to shoot. I would just like to find a light boolit that would work as well.

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Given the .004" difference, I'm not surprised about the leading. Maybe the reason that the 429421 (small diameter as well?) bullet works in your application, is that you are running it hard enough (higher pressure) to "bump up", & seal the throats.

My SW 624 has .4325 - .433" throats, & smaller diameter bullets do lead. I have found that with 15BHN, .432" sized, 220WC-PB & 240WFN-PB (both from LBT moulds), leading is minimal to the point that I can live with it - using Trailboss. Accurate & easy shootin'.

The big fix for me, was provided by Dan at The Bullshop. He sells me a 260WFN-PB / .434" / 10-12BHN bullet from a custom LBT mould. They work good sized to .433".

Your comment about the forcing cone size, has me wondering. Never measured mine. I know that many folks feel they get better results from re-cutting THE ANGLE of the forcing cone, but I never really heard a good explanation WHY.

Maybe a newly cut forcing cone, & some soft - but properly sized bullets, would do the trick. W/ this combo, you might even find that you could run a standard weight bullet SLOWER, & get the results you are looking for.

Just my $0.02....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Scrounger

Why don't you have a gunsmith open up your forcing cone? Brownells or Midway may even have a do-it-yourself tool.

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I know that this is the correct answer. I haven't been able to find a revolver smith anywhere around this area that I can take them to. I could send them to someone, but the idea of paying the freight to send the guns to someone so they can look at them to tell me wether or not the forcing cones have enough meat to be enlarged irks me. I'm probably going to do it, I'm just stalling while I keep looking for a smith. It's hard for me to accept the fact that there just aren't any smiths to be found around here.

If anyone knows of a revolver smith, anywhere in the Bakersfield/Fresno area, please let me know.

Don't feel bad about not finding a good gunsmith in your local area, there's none around here in the northern Wisconsin area either.

May I recommend contacting Charter Arms, tell them frankly what your up against with your cylinder throats and forcing cone problem, maybe they can come up with some fix it solution...perhaps sending the gun back to them.

Not your fault it was made that way. Good luck on it.


I have a Taurus model 441 that has the .434 cylinder throats, and the barrel is .429 or .430 diameter. But the forcing cone is very adequate in its entry.

I'm swaging my bullets to .431 and .432 diameter, will soon be going to the gun range to try them out.

Jim

Don't feel bad about not finding a good gunsmith in your local area, there's none around here in the northern Wisconsin area either.

May I recommend contacting Charter Arms, tell them frankly what your up against with your cylinder throats and forcing cone problem, maybe they can come up with some fix it solution...perhaps sending the gun back to them.

Not your fault it was made that way. Good luck on it.


I have a Taurus model 441 that has the .434 cylinder throats, and the barrel is .429 or .430 diameter. But the forcing cone is very adequate in its entry.

I'm swaging my bullets to .431 and .432 diameter, will soon be going to the gun range to try them out.

Before winter hit us with the deep snow last year, I managed to shoot this gun one time with .430 bullets that kind of dirtied up the gun because of a lot of blow-by of burnt powder and lube soot. The powders that did that were Bullseye, and Unique, really filthy mess. Then tried some Trail Boss powder cartridges and the filth in the barrel just dissapeared...cleaned it up remarkably well.

Have yet to find the right bullet and Trail Boss load that will shoot accurately. Hoping to use a Lee 205 grain SWC HP, and an NEI 429235 mould that drops them 245 grains with lube and gas check on them.

Jim

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...02goodone6.jpg

swagerman -

Big throats/standard size barrel seems to be the norm on some guns. That's why I've been thinking about a hollow base bullet cast soft at about 850-900 fps for my Rossi. Might "beagle" out an extra 240 gr SC Lee mold to .434-.435 and run a 5/16 or 3/8 ball mill into the base to see if it helps.

I've used hollow basing in my bullet swaging operations to good effect in .45 Colt caliber. That was for an older 2nd model S&W revolver that had .455 barrel and something like .457 or .458 diameter cylinder throats. Very good results see picture.


http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...P9050008-2.jpg


Also have some HB loads made up for the Taurus .44 special model 441, that have yet to be tested. As well as a boat load of beagled and swaged bullets to .432 diameter.

I recomend taking it easy on your first casting or swaging of the hollow bases. Something like 1/8 to 1/4 inch is usually all that's needed. Too deep a HB may cause undue pressure stresses as the bullet skirt flares out on launching...but that also has to do with how much powder you use.

Let us know your results, I will try and comply as well.


Jim

swagerman-

Thanks for info on your .45. I had read many times about using hollow base bullets in guns with throat sizes bigger than bore sizes. I planned to work up gently with powder charges and base cavity sizes.

Would be interested in your results w/Taurus.

Before you go to any hard solutions, try feeding it Cream of Wheat. My thoughts are: Using a boolit that will shoot with your barrel, but undersized for your throats lets the gases blow the lube off your boolit before it gets in the barrel, hence leading. COW may be able to retard the gases enough to leave some lube on them for the ride down the barrel. There's a chance you might get past the leading issue and even find small enough groups to keep you happy. Besides, that little revolver is probably mostly a defensive gun, and a revolver spewing hot cereal at close range wouldn't be a bad thing, for you. I've shot paper targets from a couple of yards with COW loads and the cereal penetrated the paper. Looked like a .410 hit the target.

Perfesser, I'll be going to the range soon, I hope. But health and strength is not too good.

Will let you know my results.

SOASS, shooting paper with COW may be fun, but don't try it on people or animals.

Jim

Yeah, thanks for suggestion but I think I'll stay away from COW for the time being.

OK, made it to the range today (Friday 9th) got good results with Lee 200 grain SWC bullet (bumped up to .432 dia.) with HP. Used 5.0 grains of Trail Boss that moves 820 fps velocity.

Though one of my bigger Lyman mould's was #429244 GC, I also bumped those bullets up to .432 diameter in my swaging die.

Bottom of target 1.5 inch group...top not quite as good same load.

All in all, this proved that bullet beagling works by increasing moulds to cast .432 diameter. The bigger bullets girth chambers better in my Taurus oversized cylinder throats.

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...proved556X.jpg

White paper target was a surprise that needs a little more fine tunning with the heavy bullets #429244 slugs 262 to 265 RNFP did pretty good, but should have held a six o'clock hold on my POA.

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...usethisone.jpg


But Trail Boss looking better as loads develop.

Jim

I've been playing with .44 special for a while now using a Ruger/Lipsey Blackhawk Flattop with a 5.5" barrel. The bore slugs out at .430 and the chamber throats are .432. When purchased, the forcing cone was constricted much tighter than the bore. A little fire-lapping has somewhat cured the leading issues I encountered initially.

I replaced the original rear sight with a Bowen Rough Country sight. This does require a bit of gunsmithing of a sort, but it can be handled by most people in this game I think. After a bit of grinding on the front sight and some judicious load development, I ended up with a few different loads that impact pretty much to the same point of aim on a 7 yard target... which seems to be about the range I encounter live pests around the outbuildings and about the range where I would likely encounter a dangerous predator I might feel justified in shooting... though such things are rare in these parts.

The first bullet I worked with was the 44 MAG, NOE, 255GR, SWC-K (AUTHENTIC KEITH) bullet by Montana Bullet Works. I wanted a heavy cast bullet for dealing with dangerous things up close, which lead me to the various "Keith Loads". These are not for the faint of heart and the analogy I use is like shaking hands with God. I worked up to a 16.5 grain load of Alliant 2400, but then dropped down to 15.5 grains, which was more manageable. Now I had my sasquatch load.

Using the same bullet over 4 grains of Trailboss gave me an impact point a bit higher on the target, but with noticeably less recoil. It has it uses I suppose, but was not exactly what I was after. 6 grains of Green Dot with this bullet ended up being my version of the "Skeeter load", and impacts to pretty much the same point of aim as my sasquatch load.

The next bullet I worked with was the 44 MAG, LYMAN 429215, 225GR, SWC-PB, again from Montana Bullet Works. 6 grains of Green Dot seemed to match my point of impact as did 5.5 grains of Trailboss. The Trailboss load is much more pleasant to shoot. How this happens to match the impact point of higher pressure loads is some kind of quantum physics that I haven't worked out just yet.

In any case, the Trailboss load with the 225 grain bullet is likely to become my everyday carry load around the home. I'm sure it will handle all the groundhogs, 'coons, possums and other varmints I am likely to encounter... and probably a few things I am unlikely to encounter. It will certainly handle water-filled gallon milk jugs (my most common targets these days) just fine.

I have had some leading issues in this journey, but that is not exactly unheard of. Firelapping did reduce that a bit, though the different charges didn't seem to make much difference. My next order of bullets will be ordered sized to .431. I'm hoping that will reduce leading a bit more. If not, well, I got some jacketed bullets I can load and some bronze wool as well as some solvents that smell like ammonia.

2008

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Originally Posted by alfadan

2008

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Yeah, still very interesting blast from the past. I am reading everything I can on the 44 Special again. For me it has been a 40 plus year love affair.

Daleraby, if your throats are 0.432”, then that is what your boolit diameter should be. That or 0.433” or maybe even 0.434”.

BTW I don’t mind a thread from 2008 getting more air play. 44 Special is timeless!

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Originally Posted by Chill Wills

Yeah, still very interesting blast from the past. I am reading everything I can on the 44 Special again. For me it has been a 40 plus year love affair.

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You bet. Just putting it out there so people don't expect a response from OP.

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Originally Posted by alfadan

You bet. Just putting it out there so people don't expect a response from OP.

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Good point.

Walk down memory lane. http://www.goodrichfamilyassoc.org/44_Special_Articles/

FWIW: Old or Not...The Cream of Wheat thing worked for me...searched a couple years ago.
and I use Red Dot... or of course Unique!!!

Good to read all the good testing on 44 Special handloads! My S&W 696 44 Sp likes Unique with a 200 gr Lee. I have about 17-18 lbs of 2400. I will try Ghugly's load of 13.5 grs with a 240 gr Lyman Keith style boolit.

Trail boss at 5.2 grains if I remember I. My 45 colt vaquero shoots super tight groups to POA at 25 yards using lee 255 grainers. Tried the load with Head shots on trap line raccoons. A standard velocity 22lr knocks the snot out of them vs the 45 colt trail boss load with same shot placement. Just not alot of velocity and energy transfer to shock them.