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I have started to use Aliant Black MZ and have found no matter how well I clean the rifle(wet patches then dry patches next Hoppes.dry patch and finish with oily patch)3 or 4 day later rust looks to appear or a red stain that looks like rust,this cleans up with a couple more Hoppes patches and the bore looks shiny again.Does any one know a way that I can clean the rifle properly the first cleaning
Herb, I've never used that, but it sounds like it has a high chlorate content. I would try scalding hot water and ammonia. I don't care for putting ammonia in a barrel, as it can also cause flash rust. However, it does neutralize salts from corrosive primers, and that is what I am basing this guess on. I believe there is also Windex with either ammonia or vinegar in it I have heard recommended for corrosive primers. Someone here will know for sure.
Let us know what you come up with.
What are the "wet" patches wetted with? This can make a big diffrence in performance of other cleaners and in corrosion. I would brush with windex with vinegar ( not amonia) first. Either a bronze or nylon brush will work here. Then several wet patches with windex to carry out crud. several dry patches, and visually check for fouling. wet patch with Hoppes #9 and let set for 4-10 mins to loosen any existing or hidden fouling. Brush and #9 wet patch to carry any loosend fouling out. Dry patch and oil with quality oil. Balistol mixed 20-1 with water has been a very effective Black popwder solvent also. Some times fouling needs a second cleaning due to what remains in the pore of the barrel steel. Alot used to clean and then reclean 2-3 days later when corrosive ammo was the standard. ANother trick is when lubing barrel use a pactch impregnated with the bullet lube your using tis ios much thicker than most oils and will seal better from external moisture plus help to season the barrel for next session.
I use TC Bore Butter, Seasons the barrel rather well.. ; )
H/D
I have been using windex most of the time ,sometimes just soapy water,this will bring the shine in the bore out then I do pretty much as you sugest.I do recall having to clean the full bore 303 rifles with hot water(still had to check for rust oftan though)Looks like I will just have to treat it like I was shooting corrosive primersQuote:
Originally Posted by country gent
[QUOTE=Hogdaddy;3243753]I use TC Bore Butter, Seasons the barrel rather well.. ; )
DITTO- For 20 plus years of competitive shooting and hunting, nothing but BB/natural lube and cleaning with hot water. Recently bought a 'bore light; and my original Lyman's GP barrel is perfect! Flyer
Might get ahold of some of the Montana Extreme BH209 cleaner and go after that barrel, then when done coat it with their Bore conditioning oil.
I use either a patch soaked in Hoppes No9 or Break Free CLP followed by several dry patches. No rust in my Optima Pro or Optima V2. I've gone through about 3 pounds of the stuff in the last year and I'm not sure if it's supposed to be treated like a water soluble BP sub or a smokeless type sub. I've even had mixed range sessions going back and forth between BlackMZ and Blackhorn 209 and it doesn't seem to matter what I clean it with, it cleans up just fine. I do swab between shots with the BlackMZ and that may help.
I emailed Alliant about this, they replied to use boiling water & soap then dry and oil.
BlackMZ creates copious white ash in brass and chamber and I got rust quickly when I was cleaning with just a smokeless solvent. Much better clean up with boiling water in both cartridges and rifle bore.
There are chlorates and perchlorates in it, this is a Gas Chromatograph study of it (apparetnly BlackMZ is re-labelled American Pioneer):
Attachment 140292
Perfect,that explains everything,boiling water from now on
Ive been shooting ML for around 44 years. Hot water ,IE boiling water will flash rust your bore. Use warm or cold water and a mild soap solution.
Dry out and use a good lube. Then before shooting wipe with a alcohol dampened patch to remove oil.
That seasoned bore myth is a joke. You don't season your cartridge J bores do you? I like a nice clean bore , no build up.
Bore butters make a fair patch and conical it lube . They also make a fair twist drill lube.
Add Ascorbate = Ascorbic AcidQuote:
There are chlorates and perchlorates in it,
Interesting combination of ingredients that APP concocted for this substitute powder.
Please, stop using Hopes for these BP subs. It won't help and it may create a problem. Most definitely do not use anything with ammonia in it. It will mix with the residue and rust your barrel in just a few hours...REALLY! Use hot water and dish soap. Dry and then oil using any good gun oil. I like Rem Oil. In the field, to clean and leave for a day or so, use a 50/50 mix of any good green antifreeze and distilled water. There are alcohol based lubes in the AF that will provide rust inhibition until a proper cleaning can be done. In most cases, Black MZ should honestly not rust for several days. I've gone up to 10 days after shooting without any rust. YMMV
Would Edds Red be a safer solvent to use,have stoped using Hopes until bore has been washed out with boiling water dried and oiled and it seems to have worked,now to find a solvent that will not react with the BLACK MZ
My understanding is there is no need for a actual solvent, other than water and/or soapy water. I believe that I do need to oil the bore after the hot water as unlike my lubed cast bullets with smokeless, once I have poured hot water down my BP bore there is no layer of lube left in the bore to protect it. We know 22LR bores do well with no-minimal cleaning due to the wax layer left. I think if people poured hot water down their 22LR bores they would need to protect it with an oiled patch afterwards.Quote:
Originally Posted by herbert buckland
I believe MZ needs to be cleaned with regular smokeless type cleaners. I shot my first MZ yesterday at a Cowboy Action match.....20 rounds in a vintage 1873 (38-40) and 20 rounds in a pair of converted 1858 Remington revolvers (45 Cowboy Special). When I got home and cleaned the firearms I was blown away how clean they were! A few patches with Shooters Choice mixed with Marvel Mystery Oil and they were as clean as a hounds tooth! I then oiled them with RemOil (my favorite storage oil) and put them away.
I'll have to look at them in a day or two to see if any of the rust you speak about develops.
I'll tell you one thing, MZ really creates some serious smoke! Even those little 45CS cartridges created so much smoke that I couldn't see the targets! Love it!
I am running in a new rifle and it is leading a bit just need a solvent that will not react with the BLACK MZ and cause rustQuote:
Originally Posted by sthwestvictoria
Black MZ is to be cleaned with soap and water. That's what the maker says in print, over the phone and on the web, no exceptions. Once it's clean if you have leading, I'd run a tight patch wet with Kroil. Once the lead was out I'd hit it with Rem Oil and be done with it
s
Could not find any information on BLACK MZ any were in Australia ,not a thing written on bottle or pamflet(importers are no help),could not find loading information either that was much help
I see no one has mentioned butch's bore shine to use. I also use real hot soapy water till it's clean and then dry it. The I run a heavily lubed patch down the bore using either bore butter or spg. I try to make sure there is a good even coat of the lube left in.the bore of my cartridge BP rifles and my Breach Loaders. I do the same for my Walker Colt and 1858 Remington. I have also used a bore snake from time to time.
Just one thing I'd like to point out. "Dish soap" or dish detergent is not the same as soap as in bar soap.
You want to use bar soap to clean your ML not a de-greasing detergent.
After hot water cleaning the bare steel bore will quickly rust over there is no stopping it. But it is so light that it comes off with a oiled or bore butter lubed patch. The first lubricating patch after cleaning a steel barrel will almost always have a rust tint on it.
Motor
Great information, thanks. Now, I'm going to dig out all my guns I shot the stuff in and have a look.Quote:
Originally Posted by sthwestvictoria
Following up earlier posting, After cleaning with T/C T17 bore cleaner for bp, dry patching and putting a coating of Barricade on all the metal, no rust after months. No scalding toad's tooth concoctions. I have also used Rem-Oil after the initial T17 clean and dry patch treatment and good luck-no rust there either.
This is not Pyrodex type stuff. Never having used Jim Shockey's Gold, I can't comment on that stuff. I saw a pound for sale in one of our lgs's. Have thought about buying it just to see if it really performs the same but since it's all been taken off the market anyway, can't see any point. Maybe in 100 years, they'll open our gun safes and all there will be is just little piles of gooey grey mud where those Black MZ guns were put away. All of these threads on any Black MZ topic will look like a Mueller report. Murals on the wall of the Barnes & Noble Starbucks depicting the Cast Bullet Shooter coffee group will have just empty chairs where the Black MZ users sat..Glad I won't be around.
shot a match with mz last week . cleaned with wipe out, lubed with napa power lube. still clean as a whistle.
This is an older thread but I just fired my first Black MZ cartridges and thought I would pass on my experience in cleaning it up.
I fired 20 rounds through a USFA single action and while still at the range I wiped off the outside of the cylinder and frame with a Ballistol wipe. Then I ran the folded wipe down the bore and into the chambers.
A couple hours later I was back home and cleaned the gun more thoroughly by removing the cylinder. There was more "crud" in the corners of the frame than I had thought just looking it over at the range. The stuff did clean up with some scrubbing, again with Ballistol. There was a little lead in the back of the barrel, just ahead of forcing cone so I scrubbed that with a brass brush and eventually got it clean. Ran dry patches though the barrel and chambers and put the gun in the safe. Took a look at it the next day. No signs of rusting, as some have reported.
I have to say the clean up was easier than I expected (leading aside). I've read Black MZ will clean with just water so the next time I'll try that method and report on the results.
As for how it shot, I got a satisfying cloud of smoke with no sulfur smell and a satisfying thump of recoil. My first load was enough Black MZ (1.9cc) to get a little compression when the bullet was seated. The next time out I'm going to chronograph that and maybe a little more to see how close they come to original black powder performance out of my barrel's length (5-1/2" in this case). Should be between 875 fps - 885 fps with a 250g - 255g cast bullets. That's what I got years ago firing 40g of FFg in ballon-head cases behind 255g cast projectiles.
Dave
Thought I should up-date the above post.
About 3-4 days after cleaning up from my first session with Black MZ in the 45 Colt I check my revolvers and every one (3 different guns) had white crud growing in the chambers and a little in the forcing cone area. Decided to follow the manufacturer's advice (LOL) and scrubbed them with water and a little Simple Green. Been checking back for several days and they have stayed spotless. It's water and a little soap for me from now on. (smiley face goes here)
Dave
What did you clean them with the first time Dave? I see that white crud stuff until I clean them. I use either TC 17 or a similar spray bottle put out by CVA. When I'm all done with the cleaning, I dry patch everything and finish up with a coat of Birchwood Casey Barricade. Seems to work for me and I shoot alot in my front loaders. I'm about fixing to load up some .45 Colt and maybe the cartridge guns are different then. Are you loading just up to the base of the boolit with those loads? I plan on shooting them in a Howell/Taylor cylinder out of a Ruger Old Army with a .451 bore. I have a Rogers & Spencer also but the bore size is supposedly .454 on that thing. So, i'll just have to keep the loads separate I suppose. I have the feeling it won't hurt anything anyway but why take chances until I find out. It shoots fine with a 200 grain and 8.0 gr. Unique. Really accurate load sized at .452 in my Ruger.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave T
Follow up loading cattredge guns. So far, additional loads in .32-20 Marlin 94 CL and 577/450 MH Nepalese cache gun. Marlin gave comparable accuracy to anything else smokeless-wise that I've run thru that thing. The MH goes "bang" with 70 gr. 2f volumetric equivalency (have to sit down after using those terms!), foam caulk saver/backer rod to base of boolit and the Lee 400 grain .476" boolit sized to .470" (read to do that somewhere) and seated that out to just touch the throat. Nothing resembling accuracy. Just safe to shoot apparently out of my gun. Your gun may blow up and kill everyone for miles around so don't even think of trying this yourself. Next, I'll give it a go in some .32 S&W Long and .327 Federal guns I have kicking around. Just curious about accuracy and velocity. May as well load up some shotgun shells just for the halibut. I have already used it in .410 thru 10 bore in muzzle loaders with excellent results. Just used equal volume shot to powder loads in the muzzleloaders. Only up to 1-1/4 oz. in Pedersoli 10 ga, 1-1/8 oz. in original N.R.Davis 12 ga. and 1/2 oz. in. CVA "Brittany" .410. Will try the same in some shotgun shells. Starting to feel like a crash test dummy.
I cleaned them with Ballistol at the range, then when I got home used it to more thoroughly clean them. I used a little No9 when trying to get some of the real hard black crud from the frame around the barrel and some leading ahead of the forcing cone. I thought the guns were fine as they looked shiny and spotless. 3-4 days later I had white stuff growing at the mouth of each chamber (on three revolvers) and a little around the end of the barrels and the forcing cones. The chambers were the worst. All the white crud died and went away with soapy water. (smile)
As for my loads, I am compressing the charges quite a bit. I'm not looking for wimpy cowboy loads, but performance closer to the original black powder loadings. In 45 Colt these were pretty impressive, like 900+ fps out of a 7.5" barrel shooting a 255g projectile.
Dave
Loaded up some loads last night and took them up to the range today. Was shooting my Old Army with the Howell/Taylor cylinder. Lee 200 gr. RNFP out of wheelweights, sized to .452". I have been using these same boolits ahead of 8.0 gr. Unique. Nice,easy shooting load and about as accurate as anything I've shot out of a pistol. This was my first time using the Black MZ in a cartridge. I used a Lee 2.2cc Dipper & tapped the cases and watched the level in the cases go down. I weighed a couple of charges and they came out at 28.8 gr. by weight. They weren't real accurate and after 3-cylinders full, it was a little sticky getting the cylinder out. I cleaned the gun about 3 hours later and now I see the crud everyone keeps talking about. Like you say, it cleaned right up with some of the T-17 stuff. The brass was pretty gross looking considering it was new Starline stuff. I soaked it in hot water & scrubbed it out with the wife's toothbrush.... NOT!! I think I'll leave a few dirty next time & see how bad they look in a week. I am thinking that some sort of different lube than Felix Lube next time. Maybe the beeswax olive oil mix I use on Minie and Maxi types. I think I'll drop back on that charge a bit next time also. Another guy had better luck with less powder and a different boolit. Will check the gun daily for awhile. Will be interested to see if the different lube keeps the fouling down any better.
Peace Out!
Calvin
Looking at the SDS for various BP substitutes, I have acquired my first modern front stuffer.
I inherited and have shot antique cap locks. I had always used the original propellant- 75:15:10 black powder, either purchased as commercial black powder or made by myself.
Been formulating and using various other propellants, mostly low explosive mixtures since junior highschool. I've read about and had some experience with compounding and using a range of pyrotechnic and propellant chemistries, both modern and historical.
The "Black MZ" is a mixture of Potassium perchlorate, Potassium Nitrate and a small ammount of Carbon black according to manufacturer's SDS. Plus "non hazardous" ingredients not specified- These would be fuel. Experience suggests Vitamin C (ascorbic acid) and possibly a sugar. Probably a binder as well- I expect that would be dextrin, somewhere around 5%. Possibly other minor ingredients such as Iron oxide as a decomposition catalyst for the oxidizers. This bill of materials would account for propellant characteristics.
The "Blue MZ" is 50% Potassium nitrate, 20% Potassium perchlorate, 25% Sodium benzoate and 5% dextrin.
To oxidize Iron, you need Carbon, Oxygen and water. Chlorides and acids also promote corrosion, either through hygroscopicity or other mechanisms. Different metals in contact with water present also will corrode the more reactive metal.
Any time you have Potassium perchlorate as a technical grade chemical, you almost certainly have a small ammount of Potassium chlorate as well. It's expensive to remove or destroy all the chporate, also it's usually not considered nescessary to eliminate trace ammounts of chlorates from the manufacturer's perspective.
Any propellants using perchlorate or chlorate for oxidizers will leave chloride in your bore. SALT. The same thing as you have from corrosive primers, but lots more.
Room temperature or WARM water dissolves sodium and potassium chlorides well. Warm water may also help the steel to dry quickly. Boiling temperature water will accelerate any corrosion or oxidation reactions possibly occuring in your bore and just isn't nescessary- I suggest you not use boiling water, not much help in dissolving the crud, plus the higher temperature gives a definite increase in the chances for more and quicker oxidation in your bore.
Depending on the salt, nearly pure ethyl or methyl alcohol may also dissolve a chloride to some useful extent, plus they are good at removeing WATER.
Back when the US army used corrosive priming, they didn't clean bores just once after firing. They cleaned initially with water and then water based mixtures with other solvents as appropriate to the propellant and bullet jacket materials used. Dried, oiled- Then inspected & recleaned the next day. And inspected AGAIN on at least the 3rd day, with re cleaning if any rusting was detected. Then inspected AGAIN, with more bore cleaning if needed the day after that, and so on until no corrosion was detected after.
Apparently smooth surfaces are hard to rinse completely free of even highly soluble materials. Bores always have some "texture", tiny scratches, machining artifacts, pitting, voids & etc. These will also help hold a bit of fouling, if the fouling includes chloride, this residue promotes rusting.
So- clean, dry, oil, wait, inspect, re-clean, wait, inspect and re-re-clean as needed until you have got enough of the residues out to have a stable bore condition. How cleaning was done, and for black powder substitutes with perchlorates still SHOULD be done, often the "inspect and re clean" part has been forgotten about since noncorrosive priming and smokeless powder became the norms for fixed ammunition.
FYI:
Benzoates, salicylates, some pthalates, tannins and other types of phenolic materials make good fuels for propellants using perchlorate/chlorate oxidizers, providing higher specific impulses than the original nitrate:charcoal:Sulfur black powder mixture. Even table sugar will give a rather higher impulse with only Potassium nitrate as an oxidizer than charcoal + Sulfur- But it's hygroscopic.
Sorbitol as a fuel with Potassium nitrate as an oxidizer, + 1% or so of red Iron oxide as a catalyst is a bit less hygroscopic than a sucrose fueled mixture, has higher ISP than black powder and a less corrosive residue than either BP or the various commercial "BP replacement" perchlorate oxidized propellants.