Star Sizer: O-Ring Issue, six lube dots....

I've been working w/ the Magma/Star sizer, and I've run into a couple of problems I cannot seem to resolve.

The sizer is new, the dies from Lathesmith.

First, I had an issue w/ scoring of bullets going through the die. I figured--rightly, as it turns out--that something was sticking out through one of the lube holes I'd blocked w/ #8 shot.

So I decided to remove the die and check it out. Well. Not such a good idea. The die jammed, which is to say the top O-ring was damaged and was blocking a clean exit of the die from the machine. I could *not* get it to come out. I decided to just close my eyes and yank it out of there, and it did pop past the destroyed O-Ring. It was cut into two pieces, as if the die had sheared off the exposed layer.

So there I was, one O-ring damaged beyond use. I checked the site here, there are a number of posts indicating the size to be 15/16 x 3/4 x 3/32. #14. I called Magma, they confirmed the size, indicated also it was a 116, whatever that size means. :)

Anyway, off to the store, collected several at 59 cents apiece. I cleaned out the die, found the debris that was scoring the bullets, greased up the die with a little petroleum jelly (and the rings, too), and tried to reinstall. I ripped the new O-Ring! I pulled it out, installed another one, and this time seemed to wiggle it in OK.

But I'm still having trouble w/ lube dots. I've read every thread I can find on it, all note that it's a symptom of either or both, too much pressure or too high of temperature. I've gotten both down to where I can't even get lube in the groove, and still there are lube dots.

Here's the interesting part: there are six of them, instead of just the three from the lube ports. I get it on both styles of bullets I'm running through the sizer:

Attachment 134584

Question: is it possible those dots are not from the unplugged lube ports, but rather it's lube that's making it past the plugged ports? The clue is that there are six such dots (easy to see on the right, trust me on the boolit on the left :) ).

I'm out of ideas here--all I can think of is that the "plugged" ports are not truly plugged, even though the shot was hammered into the holes as per directions.

BTW, using White Label Carnauba Red as a lube.

It might be that you didn't truely block the holes. I used #7 shot with no problems. Also make sure it is lead shot and not steel shot.

It also can be that you don't have the punch set correctly and the lube grove is not aligned with the open holes in the die.

I'd look at the holes again too.
I use 6 shot and mash it flat on the face of the die.

C-red has a flow point of about 95-f, you may have heat issues or it may be your handles transfer bar is hitting the transfer rod too soon and is allowing the lube to flow before your boolits are in place.

you really want the setup to be different operations like this.
size/cam over/lube squirt.
lift handle/put new boolit into the sizer/and lower the handle to again size/cam over/lube squirt.

run has about everything covered. Check lube action without a boolit in place to see if you have the lube pump timing, lube pressure screw, and lube temp right. If your boolits as cast size is a little on the small side for your sizing die, your lube temp needs to run a little cooler. I use 91degF and moderate screw pressure.

The best way to avoid messing O-rings when you remove them is to raise the lube temp a little before you remove it and keep plenty of spares near the sizer and they'll never tear again. Or buy more sizers so you don't have to change the dies.

I have dozens of Star dies, most are home made, and none have O-rings. None leak either.

My dies don't have o-rings either.

I just left the half an o-ring in there the second time I tore one. No leaks, or at least not enough for me to care.

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Originally Posted by bhn22

My dies don't have o-rings either.

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It's not the die that has O-rings. They're in the chamber in which the die sits. Part # S-140.

I pulled the die tonite, and in doing so tore the O-Ring again. The guy at Magma I spoke with earlier today said that the unit should be cool before removing the die. Opposite of what I would have thought--I'd have thought one would want the lube pliable, but apparently not. I cooled the chamber down w/ a couple ice cubes; didn't matter, I still tore the O-ring and it jammed the die as I tried to remove it. Eventually brute force removed it.

I thought that perhaps there was a burr on the bottom of the die that was tearing it as I inserted the die; I used emery cloth and some very fine emery paper to smooth the bevel at the base of the die, and it seemed to help it go into the unit.

With the die out, I used a roll-pin punch to drive the shot further into the lube holes; it seemed to help though I'm not sure it's completely sealed them. I think I'll drill out the blocked lube holes tomorrow and use #7 shot--I used #8, which the instructions say can be used.

I'm using Carnauba Red, but I've read in another thread that those who use it in the Star find it finicky, hard to dial in the right combination of temperature and pressure.

Any of you using CR in your Star? If not, why not, and what are you using? I read in one instance a simple switch to another lube eliminated the problems.

I have had no problems with white label lubes carnuba red. I tore 2 or three o rings in mine also. I no longer have the o ring at the top of the chamber. It oozes a very small amount. Not enough to worry about. Are you sure the timing is OK? You want the punch to reach it's full motion down before the lube pump gets activated.

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Originally Posted by VHoward

I have had no problems with white label lubes carnuba red. I tore 2 or three o rings in mine also. I no longer have the o ring at the top of the chamber. It oozes a very small amount. Not enough to worry about. Are you sure the timing is OK? You want the punch to reach it's full motion down before the lube pump gets activated.

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I'll double-check the timing tomorrow. I think it's ok but maybe not.

That you can get CR to work for you is good news. I think breaking the burr on the bottom of the die helped a lot--it went in a lot easier, I suspect it will be easier to ease it out now.

All of my dies are made by Lathsmith and are put in place without the o ring being in the Star. I tore the first one and never replaced it. Don't leak so I'll leave it alone. As far as the dots is it lube or scuff marks in the lead? It looks like it has to be some protrusion at the lube holes in the die since the dots are perfectly spaced around the boolit. Pull the die, boil it to remove the lube and check it.

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Originally Posted by mongoose33

I'll double-check the timing tomorrow. I think it's ok but maybe not.

That you can get CR to work for you is good news. I think breaking the burr on the bottom of the die helped a lot--it went in a lot easier, I suspect it will be easier to ease it out now.

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The timing is good. The punch is fully extended before the pump is activated.

Have you determined if the dots are lube or is the lead smeared?

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Originally Posted by altheating

Have you determined if the dots are lube or is the lead smeared?

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It's lube. Nice a bright red. :) Rubs right off w/ a paper towel.

On my carnuba red I set the temp for between 100 and 105 degrees and the air pressure around 40psi. The warmer your temp is, the lesser pressure you need on the lube reservior. You didn't mention if you have the air feed cylinder or not. It is a fine tuning of finding the right ratio of temp and pressure. If you want to operate at 95 degrees, then you need more pressure.

Also, when pushing a bullet through, when the bullet gets to the end of the travel, you only need to go just enough further with the handle to operate the lube pump. Only push on the lube pump stroke until you feel resistance, you don't need to stand on the handle. The stiffest part should be sizing the bullet, but you don't need to press hard on the lube pump part.

Rather than picking out the shot blocking the die holes, I sometimes purposely run my CR lube a little warmer when changing to a boolit with more lube grooves than exposed die holes. When running a little warm I will get little dots on the noses as the lube will flow slightly without the intensifier being engaged.

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Originally Posted by VHoward

On my carnuba red I set the temp for between 100 and 105 degrees and the air pressure around 40psi. The warmer your temp is, the lesser pressure you need on the lube reservior. You didn't mention if you have the air feed cylinder or not. It is a fine tuning of finding the right ratio of temp and pressure. If you want to operate at 95 degrees, then you need more pressure.

Also, when pushing a bullet through, when the bullet gets to the end of the travel, you only need to go just enough further with the handle to operate the lube pump. Only push on the lube pump stroke until you feel resistance, you don't need to stand on the handle. The stiffest part should be sizing the bullet, but you don't need to press hard on the lube pump part.

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I have a PID coming w/ a thermocouple I can glue to the heater, and Kyle's air kit coming as well. So I'll be able to fine-tune things like you indicate above.

I moved the location of the lube hole from the top to the middle; it's better, but I still have six dots from time to time. Closer. I decided the only thing to do was make up some rounds w/ the newly sized and lubed bullets and see what I could do with them. Nice rounds. :)

FWIW: I think some of the O-Ring problem is related to the shot plugging some of the lube holes. If the shot isn't peened down smooth with the body of the die, there's a lip or ledge or whatever that I think is catching on the O-ring.

I may experiment with this--I can take a 3/16 flat punch and smooth that shot down so there's nothing to catch on the O-ring. That said, I have been running the Star w/o the upper O-ring, and it doesn't seem to matter much.

Mongoose, if it's not leaking, leave the o ring out. Won't hurt a thing. Just have to ask, when you removed the die did you take all the pressure off the reservoir? I always use a heat gun to warm the area where the die is seated in and then pull it with all pressure off the lube reservoir. Did you ever figure out the lube dot thing?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by altheating

Mongoose, if it's not leaking, leave the o ring out. Won't hurt a thing. Just have to ask, when you removed the die did you take all the pressure off the reservoir? I always use a heat gun to warm the area where the die is seated in and then pull it with all pressure off the lube reservoir.

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No, I didn't take off the pressure, but the tech guy I spoke w/ at Magma Engineering said that one should remove the dies when the press is cold, not warm. Didn't make much sense to me but that's what he said.

I replaced a die yesterday, the old one came out lickety-split.

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Did you ever figure out the lube dot thing?

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I'm closer. I have a PID running the heater now, so that's easier to control. The pressure screw is probably the important variable now. I have one of Kyle's air kits on order, and I suspect once I have that installed I'll have much better ability to balance pressure and temperature.

Things are better but...man. What a learning curve. When I finally get this dialed in--assuming I do :)--I'll have to write a post on everything I as a newbie learned using the Star Sizer.

Kyle's air kit arrived yesterday, had time tonite to install it. Initially, I could not get it to work. Even with pressure cranked up to 100 the device would not feed lube to the pump. In frustration I took it off, reinstalled the original piston and crank screw, and sure enough--that worked. So I removed it, reinstalled the air piston and again, no worky. I took off the regulator, verfied I had air going through. Yep.

I had the heater running about 89 degrees.

Finally, idea! I took a heat gun and warmed up the lube reservoir a bit, as well as the pump area. Voila! Now I get lube from the air system. Not sure why it wouldn't work, but maybe it just needed some love.

Most of the "grease ring" I note in another thread is gone, but I'm back to the lube dots. I'm sure they're from the blocked lube holes in the die (I'm only using one row).

Attachment 135816

I still have some more things to try (different alloy--this is very hard), different sizing die, things like that. I'm closer to it all working as its supposed to, but still a ways to go.

I switched from CR to Commercial 160 lube. I'ts a bit stiffer and need a bit more heat, but my problems went away with the change of lube. I run the base heater screw at "about 1 o clock setting" and the pressure at about 100 psi. Sometimes I still get the same problems as you do but often not.

I can't understand the tech guy at Magma. The Star needs to be hot when changing dies. I gave up on the top o-ring. I haven't used it in a long time and the lube leakage is minimal out the top so it doesn't bother me.

I hate fiddling with shot !
Since the majority of my casting is for single groove revolver bullets I have Chris make most of my dies 6-hole/single row.
This eliminates both the need for shot and a lot of frustration. When I do need double row I provide him with the bullet drawing and he makes the die fit the bullet.
Commonly a single die will fit a variety of double-groove designs.
The small extra expense over the years has kept my blood pressure in check ! :)
lathesmith dies are outstanding !

Jerry

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Originally Posted by hunter74

I switched from CR to Commercial 160 lube. I'ts a bit stiffer and need a bit more heat, but my problems went away with the change of lube. I run the base heater screw at "about 1 o clock setting" and the pressure at about 100 psi. Sometimes I still get the same problems as you do but often not.

I can't understand the tech guy at Magma. The Star needs to be hot when changing dies. I gave up on the top o-ring. I haven't used it in a long time and the lube leakage is minimal out the top so it doesn't bother me.

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It didn't make any sense to me either.

When I pulled the die to switch lubes, the unit was warm; the die came out slick as, well, you know. Quite easily. When the lube is cold, especially if it's a lube that needs heating to flow well, I don't see how it can be better than warm.

I always remove my dies when warm, works so much better. I gave up on the o-ring years ago on the advice of the guy from Magma. The lube dots are just a bit of lube that seeped out of the normal holes while the bullet was gone and they were uncovered. It is difficult to get rid of them entirely unless you have everything set up perfect. Not sure why it is such a big deal, it is still lube and doesn't hurt anything.

I struggled with die changes and tearing the o-rings, then I found that with heat I could push the in and out by hand. Much faster, smoother and easier.

The original Star machines had no O-rings. That is something that Magma added to make up for bad fit on the die and die chamber. I have owned and used Stars since 1970 and have not had any problems with running them without the O-rings from Magma. I had Lathesmith make all of my dies and I used a 7 gal automotive air cylinder for my air source, no compressor. If the system is tight then the tank may be used for months with the same air fill as you don't expel any air, you only use it's pressure.
As far as writing about how to stop any setup woes with the Star, it's been done on this forum many times.
I have found that most all problems are operator induced and from most people either not reading or improper setting up of the instructions in the manual.
CR is a very fine lube but it has a very fine line when it comes to the proper heat settings. The biggest problem here is when operators set the lube to flow, they don't turn it down to continue lubing, which should be done. As you have seen, it goes from flow to smear very fast. Take care David

Try this for the lube dots. Clean the outside of the die really well, and clean out the plugged holes as good as you can and wipe the outside of the die down with a fast evaporating solvent like brake cleaner or denatured alcohol. Double check to make sure your plugged holes are still plugged, then mix a little epoxy and dab it over the plugged holes and let then fully cure. I've also seen guys simply wrap electrical tape over the holes, then open up the ones you want lube to pass through. Either way, the lube shouldn't be able to get past the tape or the epoxy, and this should eliminate any leakage from these holes. The epoxy can be removed easily enough when desired. If the dots persist, you should be able to trace it down to the source.

If you just want to track down the source of the dots you can simply "clock" the open holes in the die in a known direction, then examine the bullets as they emerge from the sizer. This should give you a rough idea of whether the plugged holes are leaking.

I'm new to the star and had same 'dot" problem using CR. i was at 110f and went down to about 100 that change also much less pressure problem is almost 99% gone.
so go cooler and less presure.

the lube pops out when there is residual pressure in the pump area and a too high ube temp.

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Originally Posted by cajun shooter

The original Star machines had no O-rings. That is something that Magma added to make up for bad fit on the die and die chamber. I have owned and used Stars since 1970 and have not had any problems with running them without the O-rings from Magma. I had Lathesmith make all of my dies and I used a 7 gal automotive air cylinder for my air source, no compressor. If the system is tight then the tank may be used for months with the same air fill as you don't expel any air, you only use it's pressure.As far as writing about how to stop any setup woes with the Star, it's been done on this forum many times. I have found that most all problems are operator induced and from most people either not reading or improper setting up of the instructions in the manual. CR is a very fine lube but it has a very fine line when it comes to the proper heat settings. The biggest problem here is when operators set the lube to flow, they don't turn it down to continue lubing, which should be done. As you have seen, it goes from flow to smear very fast. Take care David

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I also have had Lathesmith make my dies specific to each bullet I size. So I have nothing to plug no cares and no leaking holes. With respect to the O-ring its no needed in most cases. I have an old Star and a newer Magma and I don't use an O-ring in either.

Man I have been down this road... Let me start with this, my Magma/Star is my best purchase to date. If you bought one, fear not, it's worth every single dime you paid for it. Maybe it will click the very first time and run like gangbusters for ya and you will wonder why folks have these issues. This is for ALL OTHERS. It will take a hot minute or two to fully understand the lubrisizer. Fear not it will come. Sit down WITHOUT expectations of sizing a gillizion bullets for your steel challenge tomorrow. Tinker with getting the bullet depth right for lubing. Get it right then set it too deep and set it again and set it too shallow. All three settings make for different results. You should not fear loosing a setting because you know what to do to get it back. I have several types of bullets I cast and haven't needed anything but the middle row of holes to get by. Those big ol long rifle bullets are probably an exception. Learning with that as your first bullet might be harder but lube is cheap and paper towels and Red shop rags aren't too bad either. In setting the depth I mark my seating plug with a vertical tick mark and I visualize the press with eight possible settings to align the tick mark with, 12, 3, 6, and 9 o'clock are four possible points. Half way between those settings make the other four settings, total of eight possible settings. It's been my experience that when setting depth, my lube, will have a faint color difference at either the top of the lube groove or the bottom of the lube groove. When in the sweet spot it's either a uniform color or a very faint color difference on both top and bottom. Do not fear making those adjustments. Next is heat. First if you get oozing... Too hot... Take a thirty minute break after turning heat down. Tinkering with it after oozing will only frustrate you more. Walk away. Pressure. I use some air kit and have used a hundred pound to get a bullet lubed nothing got broke. Probably had to do with the temperature of my garage or maybe I had some pieces of lead stuck in the lube holes. Doesn't matter, the machine will tell you what it needs. Most common setting I use is 40-60 lbs. I have to tap my air gauge as some times the needle sticks. That's a finger tap on the plastic face don't hulk out. Run four or five bullets after making an adjustment some times it takes a couple pumps to equalize the settings. This was also a hard lesson to learn. After a while you will be good enough in setting your machine up to lube two lube grooves with one row of holes open and have acceptable results. Bottom line you have an awesome piece of machinery. It will provide you results that will boggle the mind once you learn it's language.

Redhawk,
you are right on, I had the same experience. Once I went thur learning curve, all works great and I have sized and lubed over 200 thousand boolits with no problem.